Election

[Iconoclast]

Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Seems God knew these two before their birth, why would you think an Omniscient God wouldn't know the choices everyone would make and therefore elected them to be the children of God based on what He knew about them beforehand.

We cross posted.....biblical foreknowledge is not about omniscience...
it is WHOM [the person].......not WHAT He did foreknow

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Another attack on the God of scripture.....very ignorant statement

Totally false, and you know it is.

You knew full well that I was directing my statememt at the flawed theology of calvinism, yet you chose to to engage in slander anyway

Congratulations.

 

[revmwc]

Both Cals and non-Cals accept God's foreknowledge with regard to individual election. The difference is that that Cals relate God's foreknowledge to his decrees. That is, God knows because that's what he decided.

Non-Cals relate foreknowledge to one's choice. That is God knows who will choose Him, so He chooses them.

The second view begs the question: God elected me based my foreseen faith, didn't I basically elect myself?

No you didn't God could have chosen not to give us volition but He gave us volition. He didn't give the Angels the ability to be redeemed but He chose to redeem mankind.

 

[jbh28]

Iconoclast...



Totally false, and you know it is.

You knew full well that I was directing my statememt at the flawed theology of calvinism, yet you chose to to engage in slander anyway

Congratulations.

No, it was you that said God was a "sadistic monster." Why don't you keep these kinds of comments out. There is no need of it. It is slanderous to say that Calvinist believe anything that makes God to be a "sadistic monster."

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...



Totally false, and you know it is.

You knew full well that I was directing my statememt at the flawed theology of calvinism, yet you chose to to engage in slander anyway

Congratulations.

AIC

God of scripture= God of Calvinism
you attack the God of Calvinism....you attack the God of scripture.

Every calvinistic confession holds this...you do not care evidently...that is on you if you want to post such foolishness.

 

[revmwc]

You do realize that you're saying God chose those who did better than others, don't you?

Not saying that at all I am saying since God knew us He knew our decision, we were and are still sinners, the difference we made a concious choice to recieve Christ and God foreknew that choice. We were elected because He foreknew and therefore predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[jbh28]

Not saying that at all I am saying since God knew us He knew our decision, we were and are still sinners, the difference we made a concious choice to recieve Christ and God foreknew that choice. We were elected because He foreknew and therefore predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

So your saying that God choose people that were good enough to make a better choice....

 

[Alive in Christ]

JBH...

No, it was you that said God was a "sadistic monster."

Now YOU are slandering me. It is mind bogglingly clear that I was saying that THE THEOLOGY of calvinism turns God into a sadistic monster, and NOT that God is a sadistic monster.

Both or you... STOP THE SLANDER.

 

[revmwc]

revmac



God did not foreknow Esau.....you do not understand foreknowledge biblically. Was Esau predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus?justified? glorified?
if you do not get this...you will not understand it.

No Esau was not elected because Esau would reject God's plan. God hated Esau not because of who Esau was but because of the choices God knew He would make. Just as He chose Jacob to be Israel before he was born.

God allowed Job to be tried because He knew what choices Job would make, and Job passed the test even though satan threw everything at Job passed and God knew He would that is foreknowledge. God has that same Omnicient foreknowledge when it comes to us.

 

[revmwc]

Not one person on here(other than one, but he hasn't posted in this thread) would deny the omniscience of God. No one here is saying that God doesn't know. Where your error is that you are assuming that this knowledge is the basis of it, which is not the case.

Again, you are making a erroneous assumption that the foreknowledge here is the basis of it. Also, the passage specifically states that the election was not based on anything in Jacob nor Esau.

It is based on what God knew about them, before they were born.

 

[jbh28]

JBH...



Now YOU are slandering me. It is mind bogglingly clear that I was saying that THE THEOLOGY of calvinism turns God into a sadistic monster, and NOT that God is a sadistic monster.

Both or you... STOP THE SLANDER.

I didn't slander you at all. Read my entire post. I said that's what you said. If you are going to quote me, don't take part of my quote out. You took the, "It is slanderous to say that Calvinist believe anything that makes God to be a "sadistic monster." How come? Because you couldn't attack me back if you did. Again, lets leave these types of comments out. Nothing a Calvinist believes makes God to be a "sadistic monster." To say such is to say slander to your brothers.

 

[jbh28]

It is based on what God knew about them, before they were born.

Doesn't say that. You are reading something into the text. No where in that text nor anywhere in Scripture does it ever say that. EVERY single time it has to be read it.

 

[revmwc]

So your saying that God choose people that were good enough to make a better choice....

Nope I am saying God chose based on the knowledge He had about the choice they would make not because they were better than others. God Foreknew therefore He predestinated those who would make that choice.

 

[jbh28]

Nope I am saying God chose based on the knowledge He had about the choice they would make not because they were better than others. God Foreknew therefore He predestinated those who would make that choice.

So your saying that God choose people that were good enough to make a better choice....

 

[Alive in Christ]

...and the reason I an saying the calivinism turns our God of Grace and mercy into a monster is because the theology teaches that God determined, before anyone was even born, that these billions over here get to be saved and go to heaven because I determind that they will go there,


....while these billions over here will burn in hell because I didnt pick them.



It makes a mockery of our loving and gracious God who declares...

It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

 

[Iconoclast]

...and the reason I an saying the calivinism turns our God of Grace and mercy into a monster is because the theology teaches that God determined, before anyone was even born, that these billions over here get to be saved and go to heaven because I determind that they will go there,


....while these billions over here will burn in hell because I didnt pick them.



It makes a mockery of our loving and gracious God who declares...

It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

THe bible never says this....this is a misquote

 

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Both Cals and non-Cals accept God's foreknowledge with regard to individual election. The difference is that that Cals relate God's foreknowledge to his decrees. That is, God knows because that's what he decided.

Non-Cals relate foreknowledge to one's choice. That is God knows who will choose Him, so He chooses them.

The second view begs the question: God elected me based my foreseen faith, didn't I basically elect myself?

No you didn't God could have chosen not to give us volition but He gave us volition. He didn't give the Angels the ability to be redeemed but He chose to redeem mankind.

You are making my point for me. If God's election of me is based solely on the the foreseen faith He gave me, how can it not be that I elected myself?

Seems to me that my election is based on my choice. I choose, God sees it, and must elect me.

And if this is the case, why does God need to elect me in the first place? I have already determined my salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Nope I am saying God chose based on the knowledge He had about the choice they would make not because they were better than others. God Foreknew therefore He predestinated those who would make that choice.

As JBH has posted...that is the opposite of what the scripture says:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;


This verse is written to show exactly the opposite...it is not what anyone does...it is God's purpose according to election.....not man

 

[jbh28]

...and the reason I an saying the calivinism turns our God of Grace and mercy into a monster is because the theology teaches that God determined, before anyone was even born, that these billions over here get to be saved and go to heaven because I determind that they will go there,

And that makes God a monster? Looks more like a God of grace!

....while these billions over here will burn in hell because I didnt pick them.

How is God a monster by sending people that are sinners and deserve hell to hell?

It makes a mockery of our loving and gracious God who declares...

It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

Same argument that the universalist uses. Obviously, if God has a desire for all to be saved, there is something else going on as not all are saved.

 

[Alive in Christ]

THe bible never says this....this is a misquote

Oh really??

Here it is, a direct copy/paste from the scriptures...

2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Iconoclast, I think you need to put down your calvinism indoctrination books and spend more time feeding on Gods inerant scriptures.