Alive in Christ
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Your point is irrealvent, as nobody here is a universalist.
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Election
- Thread starter Amy.G
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Your point is irrealvent, as nobody here is a universalist.
Clarification on universalism, please: Does the universalist say that God has a desire for all to be saved, or that God will save all?
There's a scriptural argument for the first; there is none for the second.
Interesting conundrum; but doesn't take into account that God foresaw and elected before you were born, and therefore before you were able to choose.Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Both Cals and non-Cals accept God's foreknowledge with regard to individual election. The difference is that that Cals relate God's foreknowledge to his decrees. That is, God knows because that's what he decided.
Non-Cals relate foreknowledge to one's choice. That is God knows who will choose Him, so He chooses them.
The second view begs the question: God elected me based my foreseen faith, didn't I basically elect myself?
You are making my point for me. If God's election of me is based solely on the the foreseen faith He gave me, how can it not be that I elected myself?
Seems to me that my election is based on my choice. I choose, God sees it, and must elect me.
And if this is the case, why does God need to elect me in the first place? I have already determined my salvation.
As I've identified myself before, I lean to arminian, with calvinist tendencies. Don't know if that makes me a calvinian, or an arminist.
My point was not irrelevant. go back and read it again. If God desires all to be saved, and not all are saved, then something else must be going on as not all are saved.
Yes, and yes.
Let's not get sidetracked. My point is that if God desires all to be saved, and not all are saved, there is something else going on. Either God is not really able to get what he wants, or he has another desire greater than the desire to save all. Remember, God saves. Man doesn't save himself. So the question is if God desires all to be saved, then why does God choose not to save everyone.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
You do not get to decide that there are only two options you come up with. Your personal logic does not address this issue whatsoever.
WHAT?!? What are you talking about? There is no third option. If there is, please share it with us. What part of what I said do you disagree with?
If you say that God desires all to be saved, and not all are saved, then why not?
Option 1: God is not powerful enough to save all.
well, we know that's not true.
Option 2. God has another desire greater than the desire to save all.
If you have a third option, then please share it.
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2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
As mandy has pointed out, this is a mystery to our finite, limited minds. Tell me, from the calvinist position, why God chooses this one, but not that one?
Edited to add: by the way, the common understanding of universalism is in regards to those that believe all will be saved; some extreme universalists even go so far as to say Satan and the devils will also be reconciled. The belief that the gift of salvation is offered to all, but will not be accepted/beneficial to all, is not an ordinary concept of universalism.
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Paul was quoting Psalm 14;
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This scripture does not say we are born evil,, it says all men have "gone aside" and "become filthy". You cannot "become" filthy if you are born filthy. To "become" filthy you must first be clean. Words have meaning, look up the definition of become.
At Blue Letter Bible, the word "become" in Psa 14:3 means to become corrupt, or to become sour as milk. Milk is not originally sour.
Yes, and Jesus himself described how a man becomes lost.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
How many sheep did the shepherd originally have? One hundred. Then one sheep went astray and became lost, Jesus left the ninety-nine and went and searched for his lost sheep. And that Jesus is speaking of men as sinners is shown several verses later.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
So, Jesus is showing that sinners are like a man who had a hundred sheep, but one went astray and became lost. Originally the lost sheep was in the flock.
Not so, this verse is clearly speaking of ALL men, not Adam.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The word "they" is plural and points directly to the word "man" which shows this verse is speaking of ALL men, not just Adam. That is plain correct grammar.
This is good, if you trust God he will lead you to the truth.
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(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
That might be because God gave man volition and left that decision to individual to choose positively for Him or negatively against Him. He will not force someone to be saved anymore than He chooses them to reject.
If as Peter said God's will is that all should come to repentence and it was His Divine will all would come. God's desired will is for all to come to repentence but we know that all don't come to repentance. God's desired will is that we as believers live without commiting sin, does that happen? No why because we have volition we have the ability to make choices daily to follow Him or to sin, as belivers we all commit sin and must confess that sin (1 John 1:9) in order to have our walk with Him.
God's Divine will was that their must be a Sacrifice for sin and that Scrifice had to be Perfect keeping the Law and living a perfect life. So God sent his Son and His Divine will was accomplished, God got what He wanted, He made it happen.
God could force all men to come to Him but He chose to allow man to choose positively for Him or negatively against Him in this He shows He is a just God.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Don...
My understanding is that universalism teaches that everyone goes to heaven.
Literally. Hitler. Satan worshippers. child molesters. Demoniacs, etc..
My understanding is that universalism teaches that everyone goes to heaven.
Literally. Hitler. Satan worshippers. child molesters. Demoniacs, etc..
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Winman....here is what it says so stop with your wrong twisting of verses ,then abusing parables yo force them to say what they do not say.
Psalm 14
1To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.
2Jehovah from the heavens Hath looked on the sons of men, To see if there is a wise one -- seeking God.
3The whole have turned aside, Together they have been filthy: There is not a doer of good, not even one.
Psalm 14
1To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.
2Jehovah from the heavens Hath looked on the sons of men, To see if there is a wise one -- seeking God.
3The whole have turned aside, Together they have been filthy: There is not a doer of good, not even one.
According to the good pleasure of his will. Mandy is missing my point badly. My point is that if God desires that all be saved, but not all are saved, then there must be something else going on. God must have some other desire that's greater than the desire to save all.
Universalist believe that all will eventually be saved. I don't believe anyone here believes that. I was pointing out that the argument of God wants all to be saved to be used against election is invalid.
Ok, so God desires all to be saved, but has a greater desire for man to come willingly to him. Thanks for understanding my point. If God has a desire for all to be saved and not all are saved, then there is something else going on...like a greater desire for something else.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Or, the "any" and the "all" refer to "us". Who is "us"? Who is Peter speaking to?
Well that would be a whole otehr thread to go into and I did post it way Back, concerning the Angelic Conflict.
We are never that far apart on what we believe it is how we believe it. We all believe that mankind comes to God through Faith in Christ, it is just the little matters of Predestination and Foreknowledge. We can discuss and still share common ground without name calling.
Good point. I was trying to demonstrate that even withing their view, their argument was inconsistent.
"With name calling", ok weirdo!
ok.....so you edited it right as I clicked quote....lol
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