Election

[jbh28]

I don't know if I would say God has a greater desire for free will than the salvation of all men.

You would have to since I know you would agree with me that God is sovereign.

I would say God in his Holiness cannot force men to love him and therefore sin is necessary. And love requires choice. You must allow free will in order for love to exist. And with free will comes the necessary risk that someone will reject you and hate you.

Which means that God desires free will over the salvation of people. Or I guess I could say that God desires one's love over the desire to save based on what you said here. My point is simply this, God's greatest desire isn't that all men be saved. If that were true, it would happen unless God cannot save everyone.

See, Calvinists believe God could have been a tyrant and forced folks if he chose to do so. I disagree, this is profoundly against his very nature. God is love, he cannot force or compel. He MUST allow free choice.

Calvinist don't believe anyone comes to Christ unwillingly. And why would being saved from the damnation of hell be a bad thing?

 

[Winman]

(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

I have answered this dozens of times. Notice the word "from". That means after you exit the womb. Notice it says we "go astray". You cannot go astray from God unless you were originally with God.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Notice Peter said we were as sheep going astray, but are now returned to Jesus. You cannot return somewhere you have never been. If you were born separated from God, you could not return to him.

Jesus also showed this three times in Luke 15.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

How many sheep did the shepherd originally have?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

How many pieces of silver did the woman originally have?

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

How many sons did the man originally have?

The prodigal was not born out in sin, he was born and lived in his father's house. He chose to leave his home and went out in sin. He joined himself to a citizen of that far country (Satan).

Luke 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

This is when the boy became a child of wrath. But when he repented and returned home, what did his father say?

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Twice the father said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, separated from the Father at birth, it could never be said that we are alive AGAIN. But Jesus himself said this twice.

The scriptures do not show us born dead in sin. The scriptures say God has made men upright, but all men go astray in sin and become lost.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You have been sold a lie. The scriptures do not say we are born dead in sin.

 

[webdog]

Are you saying that Paul didn't mean we were chosen to salvation when he said chosen to salvation?

No, I'm saying Paul made sure to include the means, something those in your camp ignore

 

[Skandelon]

But that's not the language of what Paul is doing.

Well, that is the debate.

Paul says we were chosen to be blameless...aka..justified.

"We" meaning who? Believers. See you always read it with an individual perspective and Paul often speaks of the whole (Jew/Gentile/Church etc)

God has predetermined to make whosoever believes to be blameless in his sight, even if they are a Gentile. That is the point being made. It is not about God preselecting individual winners and losers.

When we are justified, we are put on the "team"...in Christ.

When we believe in Christ we are justified. We enter the gate by faith. We join his team through faith. God has predestined his team to become blameless and adopted.

oh, and coaches do choose who is on their team

Depends on the league.

 

[webdog]

"You were chosen for the job based on a good recommendation from an employee and having experience"

How does the cal decipher this sentence?

 

[Forest]

Ephesians 1
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.



This has just jumped out at me!
Is there any way we can say that we haven't been elected, predestined, and adopted by God according to His will and not our own?

Does the adopted child choose the parent? Or does the parent choose the child?

According to Paul, it is God that chooses His children.


Waiting for the :tonofbricks:

You are exactly right Amy.

 

[jbh28]

Well, that is the debate.

"We" meaning who? Believers. See you always read it with an individual perspective and Paul often speaks of the whole (Jew/Gentile/Church etc)

God has predetermined to make whosoever believes to be blameless in his sight, even if they are a Gentile. That is the point being made. It is not about God preselecting individual winners and losers.

When we believe in Christ we are justified. We enter the gate by faith. We join his team through faith. God has predestined his team to become blameless and adopted.

Depends on the league.

God says he has predestined us to adoption, justification, sanctification. To read this has a group is reading something into the text. Individuals are elected. Individuals are adopted. Individuals are justified. Individuals are sanctified. It says that Christ has chosen us to be blameless. The object of the choosing is the people. All parts of salvation are being spoken of here. We cannot say that God is choosing to do something to people already in Christ because it says that God is choosing people to be blameless...justified. No one is in Christ that isn't justified or blameless. So Paul says some were chosen to be justified. This can only refer to individuals. Don't read groups in to the text. The passage just simply doesn't read that way. It does say that God has chosen that whoever believes he will do something to them. It's just not there.

 

[jbh28]

"You were chosen for the job based on a good recommendation from an employee and having experience"

How does the cal decipher this sentence?

There is no Scripture passage that lines up exactly with that syntax. Nice try though. I know of no Scripture that says one was chosen for salvation based on....

 

[webdog]

There is no Scripture passage that lines up exactly with that syntax. Nice try though. I know of no Scripture that says one was chosen for salvation based on....

The text in question supplies the avenue, the means...just like this sentence. To deny that is to remove the dozen "in Him" or "in Christ" from the first 13 verses to start the chapter.

I see you didn't give your commentary, btw.

 

[jbh28]

The text in question supplies the avenue, the means...just like this sentence. To deny that is to remove the dozen "in Him" or "in Christ" from the first 13 verses to start the chapter.

I see you didn't give your commentary, btw.

Which passage are you referring to? My interpretation of the passage in no way removes the "in him." All of our salvation is in Christ.

 

[webdog]

Which passage are you referring to? My interpretation of the passage in no way removes the "in him." All of our salvation is in Christ.

The text in the op (and first dozen verses in Eph.1). We are not chosen "to be" in Him, we are chosen in Him (God's Elect One)

 

[Winman]

So what you are saying is that God desires all to be saved, but has a greater desire to allow man in his will to choose him than to save everyone.

It is not a matter of wanting one thing more than another. That is your perspective because your mind has been conditioned to think this way.

It is a matter of Holiness. Love does not force, compel, or constrain. It is not God's nature to compel, just as it is not God's nature to lie. God cannot compel you to love him, just as he cannot tell a lie.

I don't know if you are married, but if so, I hardly believe you hit your wife over the head with a club and dragged her by the hair into your cave.

I don't know about you, but I would not want a woman who did not sincerely want me. Oh, there are a few folks out there who would kidnap a woman off the street and force her to be his wife. There was the story of Elizabeth Smart who was kidnapped like this. Is this love? NO! It is criminal, and every person on earth (except a few insane folks) knows this.

Yet that is exactly how you think a person is saved, only you think God supernaturally zaps them and makes them willing to love him. This is no different from a fellow who puts a drug in a girl's drink to make her willing and take advantage of her. This is not love, this is pure selfishness and evil.

There are a few here that think God can do anything, and just because he is God that makes it OK. That is not true.

Jhn 8: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus could not simply say anything, what he said must be truth in reality. God cannot tell a lie and that makes it OK simply because he is God as some have posted here in the past. You know who.

God cannot force a person to love him, that would be criminal. God MUST allow us free will and choice, not to do so would be immoral and sin. This is why Jesus said "for it must needs be that offences come". God MUST give us free will. This free will enables us to choose to obey and love God, but it also enables us to disobey and hate God. It cannot be avoided.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Calvinists have been so indoctrinated by false doctrine that they cannot understand what all the world understands, that love cannot be forced.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh really??

Here it is, a direct copy/paste from the scriptures...



Iconoclast, I think you need to put down your calvinism indoctrination books and spend more time feeding on Gods inerant scriptures.

Hey AIC......you only quoted half the verse;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance. THe bible never says this....this is a misquote
So as I said it is a misquote.....you still do not "get it":laugh:


here is your quote;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

here is the whole verse....

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance


Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Hey AIC......you only quoted half the verse;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance. THe bible never says this....this is a misquote
So as I said it is a misquote.....you still do not "get it":laugh:


here is your quote;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

here is the whole verse....

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance


Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error:thumbs:

Distinction without a difference. The inclusion of "usward" does not change anything, in fact further cements our understanding due to the fact your "uswards" are the jews.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Ephesians 1
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.



This has just jumped out at me!
Is there any way we can say that we haven't been elected, predestined, and adopted by God according to His will and not our own?

Does the adopted child choose the parent? Or does the parent choose the child?

According to Paul, it is God that chooses His children.


Waiting for the :tonofbricks:

Amy you sound like ya got converted......to election that is. :laugh: How about John 15:16.....see if that don't "jump out" at ya!

 

[Iconoclast]

Distinction without a differance. The inclusion of "usward" does not change anything.

If you read the whole chapter...and see the contrast...it changes everything

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


the elect are being told that the reason for the delay ...that the scoffers are whining about ..is God's long-suffering...so that all the elect will come in....read it correctly and you will see the contrast....any other reading is error.

 

[Skandelon]

God says he has predestined us to adoption, justification, sanctification. To read this has a group is reading something into the text.

I could say the exact same thing about your view. "To read this as an individual is reading something into the text." But I support that by showing the "US" is more than one person. So, you are the one reading something into the text, I'm just taking it at face value. Whoever believes (us) have been chosen for adoption, not the Jews, as previously believed by many. God has predetermined to adopt, justify and sanctify anyone, EVEN A DIRTY NON-ELECT JEW, if they believe in Christ. That is Paul's message which is the controversy of that day. You are reading your dogma into his words.

Individuals are elected.

Israel is not an individual, it is made up of individuals. And they were chosen to receive special revelation through law, prophets, priests and kings. They were chosen to bring the messiah and his message of reconciliation to the world. God elected to send the powerful gospel first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. "Many are called"

Individuals are adopted.

Yep. Individuals who believe are adopted. Why? Because God determined it to be so before the foundation of the world, even if they weren't of Israel. That is Paul's point. That is the MAJOR scandal of that day.

Individuals are justified. Individuals are sanctified. It says that Christ has chosen us to be blameless. The object of the choosing is the people.

Again, I'm not denying any of those point.

Can you please explain my view just once so I know you are getting it, because you keep saying thing that makes me think you are not understanding what we believe. Just put my view in your own words and try to represent it as correctly as you can.

I think that will help. Because right now, I really don't care if you agree with me I just need to know you understand.

 

[webdog]

If you read the whole chapter...and see the contrast...it changes everything

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


the elect are being told that the reason for the delay ...that the scoffers are whining about ..is God's long-suffering...so that all the elect will come in....read it correctly and you will see the contrast....any other reading is error.

I edited my reply...to which yours fit perfect (pertaining to the jews).

God needing to be long suffering to those He chose from the foundation of the world to not perish...and to be "willing" that this unperishable group does not perish is as ridiculous an explanation as it gets. Who is He longsuffering towards, Himself since He is the one who needs to quicken them to repent? No idea how anyone can believe this!

 

[Iconoclast]

I edited my reply...to which yours fit perfect (pertaining to the jews).

God needing to be long suffering to those He chose from the foundation of the world to not perish...and to be "willing" that this unperishable group does not perish is as ridiculous an explanation as it gets. Who is He longsuffering towards, Himself since He is the one who needs to quicken them to repent? No idea how anyone can believe this!

Paul makes us ...as he includes the gentiles you are eager to exclude.....cmon WD...I know you can see it;
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ....

 

[jbh28]

It is not a matter of wanting one thing more than another. That is your perspective because your mind has been conditioned to think this way.

Sure it is. God is the one saving. He either saves or he doesn't. If God desires all to be saved and he doesn't save all, he has a greater desire for something else. There is no argument against that. It's just fact. Don't deny it just because I'm a "Calvinist."

It is a matter of Holiness. Love does not force, compel, or constrain. It is not God's nature to compel, just as it is not God's nature to lie. God cannot compel you to love him, just as he cannot tell a lie.

Any passage to backup that God doesn't compel someone to do something

I don't know if you are married, but if so, I hardly believe you hit your wife over the head with a club and dragged her by the hair into your cave.

AND NO CALVINST BELIEVES GOD DOES THIS TO US!!!!! HOW MANY TIMES MUST WE TELL YOU THIS! STOP SAYING FALSE THINGS ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE!

oh, yes I'm married.

the rest has nothing to do with my point.