Featured Election

I edited it go back I caught it just as I hit the button and revised.

 

Okay, my original response to you pointed out two different types: Those that believe all will eventually be saved (to which you responded "yes," and have subsequently confirmed here); and those who believe that salvation is offered to all, but not all will be saved (to which you had also responded yes, thereby identifying them as universalists, too).

So just for my clarification, if you believe the second group are also universalists, please explain further.

 

You asked, "Does the universalist say that God has a desire for all to be saved, or that God will save all?"

universalist do say that God has a desire for all to be saved. That doesn't mean that all that believe that God desires all to be saved are universalist. I by no means believe anyone here is a universalist.

 

Been there, done that too. sometimes our hands don't like to type what we tell them to.

 

I'm not denying that jbh. Please try to at least understand this perspective.

If the captain of a football team speaking to his teammates says, "Before this season began, the coach predetermined for us to be conditioned and trained." Does that necessarily mean the coach predetermined who would and wouldn't be on the team, or does it just mean that the coach had a predetermined plan in place for all those who were on the team? Now, even if you accept the second more 'corporate' understand of 'us' (meaning the team) does that negate the fact that each individual team member was trained and conditioned? Of course not. Yet you're arguing against my perspective as if I don't believe the individuals on the team are actually adopted and saved. That shows me you have yet to really understand this perspective. And I'm fine with you rejecting my view, but I want to at least know you understand it.

 

But what is His will in regards how we are chosen for salvation? You are back to putting the cart before the horse like a couple years back

 

Yes, it's called free will. God desires all men to be saved, but he does not force any man to be saved. The man must submit to God and trust in the only means of salvation God has provided, which is Jesus Christ. If the man refuses to trust in Christ, then that man will go to hell.

This is only confusing to Calvinists because their thinking has been conditioned to believe in Total Inability, for everyone else it is simple.

How is God not in charge? If you submit to his will and trust in Christ you will be saved, if you refuse to believe you will go to hell. God is in total control, you cannot get to heaven any other way than God has decreed, which is through Christ.

 

I addressed this verse earlier. David was confessing his sin with Bathsheba. It makes no sense whatsoever to suddenly blame his sin on his birth. What kind of confession is that?

And that is the whole idea behind Augustine's theory of Original Sin. It blames God and gives man an excuse for his sin. If a man is born with a sin nature and can only sin, he cannot be held accountable for doing the only thing he can do.

David was likely speaking of his mother in Psa 51:5. There is scriptural evidence that his mother had either been married to Nahash the Ammonite, or she had been his concubine and had borne two children with him. This was considered a pollution to the Jews. David was the "black sheep" of the family. When Saul came to Jesse and asked to see all his sons, twice Jesse did not bring David. It was only when Samuel pressed Jesse that he brought David to him. His appearance was different from his brothers. But he was the man God chose and Samuel annointed him.

Substitute any words for inquity and sin and you will easily see David was speaking of his mother.

Behold, I was brought forth in joy, And in gladness my mother conceived me.

See, if you substitute the word "joy" for the word "iniquity", and substitute the word "gladness" for the word "sin" you can easily see this verse is speaking of David's mother, and not himself.

 

According to Christ He chose us but you still have to notice that we are chosen "IN HIM" This is not because of election but because of our faith. Salvation is conditional. It can only happen if we have Faith or Hope in Him.
MB

 

Oh, I explained that in big blue letters.

You can show Calvinists scripture all day long, they are impervious to it, except that is, their carefully chosen proof texts.

Ephesians 1:4 clearly says were were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world, but Paul shows in Romans 16:7 that a man becomes "in Christ" in time.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Andronicus and Junia were "in Christ" before Paul. This shows that we become "in Christ" in time when we believe and are baptized into his body.

So, how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world if we were not "in him" until time? FOREKNOWLEDGE God could personally see and know the hearts of men before they were born, he could see those that trusted Christ in time, and chose these believers before the foundation of the world.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

We were chosen "through" santification of the Spirit and BELIEF OF THE TRUTH. No belief or faith in the truth and you were not chosen.

But how can be believe before we are born? You can't. Nevertheless, God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe in time, and therefore we are elect according to his foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

:thumbs:

:thumbs:

 

But that's not the language of what Paul is doing. Paul says we were chosen to be blameless...aka..justified. When we are justified, we are put on the "team"...in Christ.


oh, and coaches do choose who is on their team

 

So what you are saying is that God desires all to be saved, but has a greater desire to allow man in his will to choose him than to save everyone.

 

The "we" have already been justified. We are blameless due to being in Christ, not due to being elected for salvation. If we are in Christ we are already on the "team"

 

Barnes makes the mistake of splicing it up into parts instead of reading the whole in context.

The text quite simply states we have been chosen for salvation due to the work of the Spirit and faith. That's it. Anything other than that is reading something into the text Paul had no intention of saying.

 

You are right. No one is save when they are elected. One is saved when he is in Christ. We are chosen to be justified before the foundation of the world.

 

Are you saying that Paul didn't mean we were chosen to salvation when he said chosen to salvation?

 

I don't know if I would say God has a greater desire for free will than the salvation of all men. I would say God in his Holiness cannot force men to love him and therefore sin is necessary. And love requires choice. You must allow free will in order for love to exist. And with free will comes the necessary risk that someone will reject you and hate you.

See, Calvinists believe God could have been a tyrant and forced folks if he chose to do so. I disagree, this is profoundly against his very nature. God is love, he cannot force or compel. He MUST allow free choice.

1 Jhn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is love, and love never seeks it's own way.

1 Cor 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

God is love, he does not compel. Therefore men are given the choice of loving and trusting in Christ, or rejecting him and hating him. The choice cannot be avoided, sin is necessary.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus said sin is necessary, it must needs be. Why? Because God by nature must give us choice, and this choice enables sin. It cannot be avoided.

But notice Jesus warned us if our hand or foot offend us, cut them off, it is better to enter life maimed, rather than to be cast into everlasting fire.

So, Jesus is showing we do have ability to do something about our salvation. We can make a choice. We can continue in our sin, or we can cut it off and cast it from us and trust in Christ and be saved.

Jesus is absolutely saying that you have a factor in your salvation.

Do you deny this?

 

(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.