Dead to the Ten Commandments

[savedbymercy]

bib

That is Paul's description of himself but God does not address saints as such or regard their present relationship to him as such.

All believers are still sinners while in the flesh Rom 7 !

But none of that really matters, because if you say that anyone Christ died for is under God's condemnation and wrath, you deny Christ ! It is no way around it !

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

bib



I know that, I have commented on that earlier, try reading the thread and remembering. That does not change what the Cross done ! Rom 4:25

You deny the Justification of the Elect evidenced by the resurrection you deny the Cross, a serious offence !

GE:

As an observer: You're talking rubbish.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Salvation, whether seen as atonement, reconciliation, justification, or sanctification, or election. or glorification or whatever, is best understood, best explained, best applied and best enjoyed, through doxology.

Polemics or theology or apologetics or philosophy or whatever, never can bring that peace, reliance and assurance, and invigoration and enjoyment found in Christ and by grace through faith in the Congregation of the Faithful, in praise, worship, prayer, song, witness, proclamation, sacrament and liturgy; even in Bible study.

Disagreement and dissent like the walls of Jericho crumble at the sound of the on-marching Fellowship of the Saints in song and praise.

O that Christ's Church may find UNITY, because UNITY in God's People is the GLORY of Christ's HONOUR.

Moral of my story? Be it far from us to just argue to argue; to just judge instead of to listen first; to just dismiss without having paid attention; to deny acknowledgment just because it's not me or mine acknowledged.

Because that is what a Bible discussion FORUM is for! To argue but with a reason and for a reason; and to actually get results and come to a satisfactory CONCLUSION at some stage better sooner than later!

 

[savedbymercy]

When the Elect are born sinners by nature, enemies of God in their minds by wicked works Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

They are still born without any Legal Condemnation from God against them. Why ? Because of the Cross of Christ. Christ bore in their behalf, all the Legal Condemnation that their sins deserve , He satisfied God's Law and Justice for them Already, so who can lay any charge against God's Elect ? Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

By the way, When does Christ begin to make intercession for those He died for ? Is it not until they believe ? Or is it before they are born as sinners. Christ's Intercession for them is based upon His Death for them.

When was Christ charged with their sins against God's Law ? Did God first charge the Elect with their sins, then later Charged Christ with them? Who did God charge First and foremost with the sins and law Breaking of the Elect ?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.........................
When does Christ begin to make intercession for those He died for ? Is it not until they believe ? Or is it before they are born as sinners. Christ's Intercession for them is based upon His Death for them.
..................

GE:

Christ 'made intercession' for his disciples WHILE He tasted death for them, BEFORE He gave his own spirit into his Father's hands, John 17.

From the beginning, in Eden already, Jesus Christ made intercession for those He would die for in the distant future. Genesis 3.

It is not until they believed that those whom Christ has ever since made intercession for, believed. They began to believe when God in their own lives and lifetime, through his Holy Spirit kindled faith in their hearts, and they not at all knew or believed, or began to know, or from the first moment knew and believed ... all depending on God's will for them.

 

[savedbymercy]

ge

It is not until they believed that those whom Christ has ever since made intercession for, believed

I disagree, He makes Intercession for them before they believe, Just like He did in Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[savedbymercy]

Why would Christ not immediately intercede for those He purchased with His Own Blood ? They belonged to Him, He Loved them to give Himself for them ! Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

[The Biblicist]

ge



I disagree, He makes Intercession for them before they believe, Just like He did in Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Intercessory prayer is one thing; application is quite another thing! I believe in the eternal Priesthood of Christ according to the eternal Purpose of God and based upon that Purpose Christ applied redemption "through faith in his blood" prior to the cross (Acts 10:43) to his elect based upon the promise of His coming to actually provide the purchase price - Rom. 3:25-26.

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

His purposed redemption before the world began does not mean it was actually and literally obtained before the world began. It does not mean either the purchase was fulfilled before the world began or the elect were literally and actually saved before the world began but that is exactly what you are attempting to teach. You cannot distinguish between purpose and fulfillment.

The elect by divine purpose are redeemed before the world began. By divine purpose they are called, justified and glorified as well as redeemed. But the divine Purpose in and of and by itself is not literally and actually the fulfillment of calling, justification, glorification and redemption but rather is ONLY what secures the actual and literal fulfillment of all these things.

Christ's atonement redeems the elect according to design by the Eternal Purpose of God but not according to the Holy Spirit application as application is equally determined by the Eternal Purpose of God to be the work not THROUGH the Son but of THROUGH the Holy Spirit. You are attempting to have the Son usurp the work and office of the Holy Spirit. Even as High Preist in heaven Christ is administering the atonement THROUGH the Person and work of the Holy Spirit. Hence, His own redemption work did nothing more than provide redemption for the elect but did not apply that redemption to any of the elect as that is the work of the Holy Spirit purposed by God in time and space unto the elect.

Don't respond that my use of the term "provision" means "potential" as I said no such thing. The "provision" is for God's elect but Christ does not secure its application to the elect as that is the work of the Holy Spirit and not Christ. Christ's work of redemptive provision is FINISHED but redemption is not finished but is the ongoing work THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

1. God the Father purposed redemption
2. God the Son provided redemption
3. God the Holy Spirit applied redemption

The Father did not do the work of the Son and the Son did not do the work of the Spirit. The application "through faith" is God's purposed redemption before the world began. Christ's provision of redemption is "through faith" (Rom. 3:25-26). The Holy Spirit's application of redemption is "through faith." Faith is the regenerative creative work of God - 2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
It is not until they believed that those whom Christ has ever since made intercession for, believed

ge
I disagree, He makes Intercession for them before they believe, Just like He did in Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

GE:

How do I understand you now?!

But, acknowledged, Christ in all his Mediating life -- which has been Eternal Life -- has made intercession for the Elect; even before they were born and from before the foundation of the world. But that, has been ongoing in the life of God, and would not begin in the life of an elect until the life of an elect.

Exactly what you quoted, "I pray for these alone, ... for them ... which shall believe on me". So, "He makes intercession for them before they believe, Just like He did in Jn 17:20."

Ja, you are right for sure. But as certainly, Christ's work for them realised in their own lives, and it was not until then, that Christ became a Mediator for them.

I resort to my old plea, Do not kill the paradox! It is only a dead thing that remained in your hand if you dissected it so well you understood it fully.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Having said that, in answer to Biblicist,

This is not absolute,

1. God the Father purposed redemption
2. God the Son provided redemption
3. God the Holy Spirit applied redemption"

Jesus said in absolute sense and terms the Father does nothing but through Him, and He does nothing except of the Father, and the Father and the Son don't do anything or they do it in and by the Power of the Spirit of Holiness, "in the full Fellowship of the Trinity" (Klaas Schilder") LIKE IN THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FROM THE DEAD, the ONE deed of God Tri-Une "BY THE EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS POWER WHICH HE WORKED …” in absolute UNITY as in absolute POWER OF DIVINE BEING AS, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit “… when He raised Christ from the dead” and SO IN EFFECT:

1. God Tri-Une purposed redemption
2. God Tri-Une provided redemption
3. God Tri-Une applied redemption

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Intercessory prayer is one thing; application is quite another thing!

Intercession is far before application. Many of the Elect when Christ died were not ordained to live until centuries Later, yet His Intercession for them based upon His Blood was accepted of God and they were Justified before God by His Blood ! Rom 5:9


9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul did not Just say that regarding those He presently then wrote to, but the statement was relevant for all the Church of God[The whole Church was Justified by His Blood], and those who shall believe through His Word as well as the Word of the other Apostles. You deny this, You deny the Gospel, Plain and simple !

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'Dead to the Ten Commandments'....


It is nowhere written to be dead to the Ten Commandments.
It is written to be dead to the Law.
And that means, THE LAW regards YOU, DEAD; and not you, the Law! Because the Law says, DIE, you sinner!
To be dead to the law does not mean to play dead like a mouse to a cat's play; it means the Law judged you DEAD! Suffer the penalty! Pay the price! Receive the wages of your sins!
But, say people like Moriah, No, to be dead to the Law means the Law is dead; and to not be under the Law means you're above the Law and the Law has no say over you for whatever transgression you may commit against it.
There is nothing I can do about such misconceptions, or need do. The Law speaks for itself and shall speak for itself and everybody shall find out for himself who's got the last say, the Law or he who thinks he is rid of the Law of God.
One last thing, many will say in that day, Lord, Lord ... they are those who forced into the Scriptures their own lies and misconceptions, YET BOAST THEY ARE "NOT UNDER THE LAW" OR ITS CURSE but under Christ and grace.