Carnal Christians, false converts, or weak brethren?

[evangelist6589]

I am reading a most excellent book I got in the mail today called Your Eternal reward. The premise of the book is on the judgment seat of Christ. The book only has one chapter on the great white throne judgment. In a page the author has given support for carnal christians. However people like MacArthur, ray Comfort, and others refer to these people as "false converts." The author of this book is a Calvinist also (at least I think he is) but he holds very similar views to great bible teachers like Charles Stanley among others whom may not be a Calvinist, but whom are Calvinistic.

As I am preaching a message in a couple weeks on the subject of false converts and false conversions this book may help. So what do you say?

 

[revmwc]

Same question asked in a different post my answer copied and pasted from there.

First the unbeliever is called the natural man by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
That means the unbeliever is a "Psuchikos" which means of or belonging to breath having the nature and characteristics of the breath the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes governed by breath
the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

So that is one type of human on this earth.

Next Romans 8:7 Paul says to be carnally minded is emnity with God. Carnally means a person is living in the "Sarx" meaning :
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts the body the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship born of natural generation the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" without any suggestion of depravity the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
But notice this is not in reference to the natural man but in Romans 8:8 Paul uses the same word for Flesh, of those living in the Flesh. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says they are carnal which is "Sarkikos" this is derived from the word "Sarx" and means fleshly, carnal having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature human: with the included idea of depravity pertaining to the flesh
to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
and is in reference to the belivers at Corinth living in the flesh in other words living in sin as believers. They are Sarkikos people a second type of human living on earth today.

Then we see also in 1 Corinthians 3:1 verse 1 Paul uses yet another term for man, the "Pneumatikos" which means: relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ that which possesses the nature of the rational soul belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God belonging to the Divine Spirit of God the Holy Spirit one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing
When Paul says he could not speak to them as Spiritual or "Pneumatikos" yet a third type of person living today.
Paul uses the same word in 1 Corinthians 2:14 for the things of the of the spirit of God are " Pneumatikos" discerned.

So three types of people live today:
Psuchikos- Natural man unbeliever
Sarkikos- Carnal believer
Pneumatikos- Spirutal believer.
All seen in the writings of Paul. We all fall into one catagory or the other. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that some will be saved and receive a reward of wood, hay and stubble but be saved for eternity yet though as through the fire. That would be the Sarkikos believer, saved but with no eternal rewards because they lived in the flesh as believers.

 

[DHK]

As I am preaching a message in a couple weeks on the subject of false converts and false conversions this book may help. So what do you say?

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1. They are brethren. They are believers.
2. They are babes in Christ. They are either new believers or act as new believers.
3. He cannot speak unto them as spiritual, that is, as mature believers.
4. He must start over speaking to them as carnal believers, believers who have been so influenced by the world that they must start with the basics all over again. They are believers, but carnal believers. Yes there is such a thing as a carnal Christian in-spite of what those like McArthur say.

 

[Van]

It seems obvious to me that new converts, babes in Christ, who have yet to begin or have not traveled very far on the road to Christian maturity, are referred to by Paul as still fleshly.

Because they have not progressed yet, they cannot understand spiritual meat, but only milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. So their ability to understand spiritual things has not increased over that of unconverted men of flesh.

The book of James addresses immature Christians, folks who do not walk the talk, do not exercise control over what they say, folks who seek to avoid trials rather than grow through trials.

I think it is a false trail to seek to discern who are babes and who are tares. Tares can be converted to babes and then together they can be guided to the path of maturity, by a study of James.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are only two men

natural/carnal

spiritual....only two

 

[Amy.G]

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

It seems like Paul is saying that they are behaving like carnal/fleshly men, not that they are carnal. Because he also says that to be carnal is death. So there is a difference between behaving carnally and being carnal.

 

[revmwc]

There are only two men

natural/carnal

spiritual....only two

So you see Paul's use of Sakikos that being of the Sarx or flesh when He tells the believers at Romans they are carnal as an unbelievers. When He clearly used psukikos in I Corinthians 2:14 for the unbeleiving, natural man?

Two distinctly different writtings and addressing of the brethern (believers) at Rome calling them carnal and saying the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you see Paul's use of Sakikos that being of the Sarx or flesh when He tells the believers at Romans they are carnal as an unbelievers. When He clearly used psukikos in I Corinthians 2:14 for the unbeleiving, natural man?

Two distinctly different writtings and addressing of the brethern (believers) at Rome calling them carnal and saying the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit.

REVMAC,

you correctly identified the correct words in the GK.
Paul is admonishing them....in this one sin{sectarianism} they are behaving out of character....they are behaving as the unsaved,,,as mere men ,,, as natural......He does not say ...you are constituted carnal

look here;

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

 

[revmwc]

REVMAC,

you correctly identified the correct words in the GK.
Paul is admonishing them....in this one sin{sectarianism} they are behaving out of character....they are behaving as the unsaved,,,as mere men ,,, as natural......He does not say ...you are constituted carnal

look here;

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

We can be in a carnal state as believers when we continue in sin, why because we are in a state of Temporal Death (seperation). We cannot understand spiritual things because the Holy Spirit's filling is not working in our lives we are temporarily seperated from the control of the Spirit thus in Temporal death. This can lead to Operational Death (seperation) if we continue to let sin control. When we are controlled by our sin not the Holy spirit we are still believers still saved just out of fellowship with God.

 

[Forest]

Same question asked in a different post my answer copied and pasted from there.

First the unbeliever is called the natural man by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
That means the unbeliever is a "Psuchikos" which means of or belonging to breath having the nature and characteristics of the breath the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes governed by breath
the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

So that is one type of human on this earth.

Next Romans 8:7 Paul says to be carnally minded is emnity with God. Carnally means a person is living in the "Sarx" meaning :
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts the body the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship born of natural generation the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" without any suggestion of depravity the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
But notice this is not in reference to the natural man but in Romans 8:8 Paul uses the same word for Flesh, of those living in the Flesh. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says they are carnal which is "Sarkikos" this is derived from the word "Sarx" and means fleshly, carnal having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature human: with the included idea of depravity pertaining to the flesh
to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
and is in reference to the belivers at Corinth living in the flesh in other words living in sin as believers. They are Sarkikos people a second type of human living on earth today.

Then we see also in 1 Corinthians 3:1 verse 1 Paul uses yet another term for man, the "Pneumatikos" which means: relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ that which possesses the nature of the rational soul belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God belonging to the Divine Spirit of God the Holy Spirit one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing
When Paul says he could not speak to them as Spiritual or "Pneumatikos" yet a third type of person living today.
Paul uses the same word in 1 Corinthians 2:14 for the things of the of the spirit of God are " Pneumatikos" discerned.

So three types of people live today:
Psuchikos- Natural man unbeliever
Sarkikos- Carnal believer
Pneumatikos- Spirutal believer.
All seen in the writings of Paul. We all fall into one catagory or the other. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that some will be saved and receive a reward of wood, hay and stubble but be saved for eternity yet though as through the fire. That would be the Sarkikos believer, saved but with no eternal rewards because they lived in the flesh as believers.

There are two types of mankind living on earth, The elect of God and the non-elect. The second person that you describe is a believing child of God that has yeilded his mind and body to the desires of the flesh. When a believing child of God makes that kind of a desicision they seperate themselves from a fellowship with God, but they do not lose their eternal inheritance. When they repent of that sin, God takes them back in his fellowship.

 

[Forest]

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1. They are brethren. They are believers.
2. They are babes in Christ. They are either new believers or act as new believers.
3. He cannot speak unto them as spiritual, that is, as mature believers.
4. He must start over speaking to them as carnal believers, believers who have been so influenced by the world that they must start with the basics all over again. They are believers, but carnal believers. Yes there is such a thing as a carnal Christian in-spite of what those like McArthur say.

John 10:26-29, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.. and I give unto them eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. If a person believes they are of his sheep and inhererit eternal life and shall never perish. Romans 8:35-39, Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or destress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loves us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are either his sheep or we are not his sheep, only two types of mankind. All of God's elect start out as "babes in Christ". Paul says that he cannot teach the meat of the word (the doctrine) to babes in Christ but only to those who are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. Isa 28:9.

 

[Forest]

It seems obvious to me that new converts, babes in Christ, who have yet to begin or have not traveled very far on the road to Christian maturity, are referred to by Paul as still fleshly.

Because they have not progressed yet, they cannot understand spiritual meat, but only milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. So their ability to understand spiritual things has not increased over that of unconverted men of flesh.

The book of James addresses immature Christians, folks who do not walk the talk, do not exercise control over what they say, folks who seek to avoid trials rather than grow through trials.

I think it is a false trail to seek to discern who are babes and who are tares. Tares can be converted to babes and then together they can be guided to the path of maturity, by a study of James.

Matthew explains the parable of the tares in chapter 13:38-40, The tares cannot be changed to be good seed, they are to be left in the world until the harvest which is the end of the world and gathered and burned.

 

[DHK]

John 10:26-29, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.. and I give unto them eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. If a person believes they are of his sheep and inhererit eternal life and shall never perish. Romans 8:35-39, Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or destress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loves us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are either his sheep or we are not his sheep, only two types of mankind. All of God's elect start out as "babes in Christ". Paul says that he cannot teach the meat of the word (the doctrine) to babes in Christ but only to those who are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. Isa 28:9.

Paul addressed the ones in 1Cor.3 as brethren. They were sheep.
We all start out as sheep. Some sheep grow faster than others. Not everyone is the same. Remember that in the first epistle of the Corinthians, Paul was addressing various problems. When he was addressing problems relating to marriage he wasn't addressing single young men. When he told fathers not to provoke their children he wasn't addressing mothers. He addressed situations, and the people involved in those situations. In fact in 1Cor.5:1ff, the situation revolves around one man, and the churches reaction to that one man's sin. Every chapter is different with different people involved. Thus not the whole church were "carnal Christians" or babes in Christ.

 

[revmwc]

There are two types of mankind living on earth, The elect of God and the non-elect. The second person that you describe is a believing child of God that has yeilded his mind and body to the desires of the flesh. When a believing child of God makes that kind of a desicision they seperate themselves from a fellowship with God, but they do not lose their eternal inheritance. When they repent of that sin, God takes them back in his fellowship.

But they are living in the Sarx and are a fleshly believer. Notice I said still saved still got to heaven.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Matthew explains the parable of the tares in chapter 13:38-40, The tares cannot be changed to be good seed, they are to be left in the world until the harvest which is the end of the world and gathered and burned.

Calvinism denies passage after passage and writes others to fit its mistaken doctrine. No mention is made of whether tares can be converted to wheat in the passage, just that God will separate wheat and tares at the harvest time. The tares are simply men of flesh who have not yet been regenerated because they do not understand fully the gospel because what they heard was not the pure gospel, or they have not committed wholeheartedly to Jesus alone.

However, Paul teaches that each and every born again believer was once a child of wrath just as the tares. So scripture does teach that the unsaved can become saved, provided they are cultivated, planted with good seed, and watered.

 

[evangelist6589]

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1. They are brethren. They are believers.
2. They are babes in Christ. They are either new believers or act as new believers.
3. He cannot speak unto them as spiritual, that is, as mature believers.
4. He must start over speaking to them as carnal believers, believers who have been so influenced by the world that they must start with the basics all over again. They are believers, but carnal believers. Yes there is such a thing as a carnal Christian in-spite of what those like McArthur say.

Wow I come back to this site and I got allot of replies and more than I have time to address. Anyways I think what you say does have merit. MacArthur is a great author whom sometimes over analyizes the text. I listened to a sermon of his on work, and I dont think he did s good of a job at addressing the subject as Charles Stanley did in another sermon, whom I think communicated better and explained more of the text.

 

[DaChaser1]

I am reading a most excellent book I got in the mail today called Your Eternal reward. The premise of the book is on the judgment seat of Christ. The book only has one chapter on the great white throne judgment. In a page the author has given support for carnal christians. However people like MacArthur, ray Comfort, and others refer to these people as "false converts." The author of this book is a Calvinist also (at least I think he is) but he holds very similar views to great bible teachers like Charles Stanley among others whom may not be a Calvinist, but whom are Calvinistic.

As I am preaching a message in a couple weeks on the subject of false converts and false conversions this book may help. So what do you say?

Carnal Christian can be either those engaging in sin, whose are refusing to confess/repent of it for a season, who would be walking in the Flesh. not empowered by Holy Spirit, one who tries to keep the Law in orderto be saved/kept saved, basically one choosing to have themselves as Lord of own lives, not Christ!

such a One is the person who will be saved at Judgement of Believers, but as if by fire!

 

[DaChaser1]

But they are living in the Sarx and are a fleshly believer. Notice I said still saved still got to heaven.

"Saved if by fire!"

 

[DaChaser1]

There are only two men

natural/carnal

spiritual....only two

Actually per the Bible :
Unsaved/lost

Saved, who can switch back and forth from living for God out of the power of the HS filling them, or else living in own streght, and failing, trying to keep the law rto please God, but fail when done own might!

Carnal christians are just those who ahve chosen at some point in time to live as their own lords, who fail to be effective for God, but can at any time chose to have the Lord take over and empower, and thus 'spiritual" again!

 

[Forest]

I am reading a most excellent book I got in the mail today called Your Eternal reward. The premise of the book is on the judgment seat of Christ. The book only has one chapter on the great white throne judgment. In a page the author has given support for carnal christians. However people like MacArthur, ray Comfort, and others refer to these people as "false converts." The author of this book is a Calvinist also (at least I think he is) but he holds very similar views to great bible teachers like Charles Stanley among others whom may not be a Calvinist, but whom are Calvinistic.

As I am preaching a message in a couple weeks on the subject of false converts and false conversions this book may help. So what do you say?

If eternal life is a reward, it would not be a salvation by grace.