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Did Elijah go to Heavaen or Paradise
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
convicted1
Guest
Isn't the Paradise in Luke 16 another name for heaven? I could be wrong. This two-sided hades/paradise bunk is eerily akin to RCC teachings of perguratory if you ask me.
I am inclined to agree with you here. Back when I was a dispensationalist, I was taught and believed the "compartment theory." This is supported by sparse prooftexting, such as this:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
CT explanation: Jesus is teaching dispensationally to the Jews that no human has ever been to the "third" heaven. This all changes once Jesus is resurrected...
[Progressive dispensationalist] and all believers in Christ afterwards go to heaven when they die, and the Old Testament saints were brought from Paradise (in the earth next to hell) up to heaven.
[Classical/hyper dispensationalist] and all members of the Gentile Body of Christ go to heaven when they die (God's "heavenly people"), but Israel (God's "earthly people") will always dwell on earth (the "new heavens and new earth").
Reply: Jesus is NOT making a statement that no human being has ever went to heaven. He is refuting a prevailing Jewish myth at the time that prophets "sent from God" actually ascended to heaven to receive revelation from God and returned to earth to deliver it to the nation.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Jesus said that no man (which they especially believed of Moses from Mt. Sinai) has ever ascended to heaven to bring God's revelation down, but Jesus the God-Man descended only from heaven (as a divine inhabitant).
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
CT explanation: When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took those "captive" in "Abraham's bosom" to be "captive" in heaven. No one could be allowed in heaven proper until Jesus atoned for sin.
Reply: This is talking about Jesus leading those "captive" to Satan and sin to be "captive" to God and righteousness (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18; Romans 6:16-18). Also, see Peter's argument in Acts 2 about David prophesying of Christ's resurrection with the inauguration of the New Covenant in the "last days" with the Spirit poured out and the signs and "gifts" of the Holy Spirit.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
CT explanation: Once Christ took Paradise ("Abraham's Bosom"--the partition of Hades for the righteous) out of the earth and brought it to heaven, hell (the partition of Hades for the wicked) "enlarged itself" by taking up the remaining space to make room for those who would be judged by God for rejecting Christ.
Reply: The context of the passage is the captivity of Israel from the land, and the death of many Israelites in the process. See v.17 where there will be lambs who will feed on their own (they will not have shepherds).
beameup
Member
Moses is buried in a grave somewhere on earth.
Elijah and Enoch are being held "somewhere" until the Great Tribulation, when they will be the "Two Witnesses" of Rev. 11:3
Except Jesus said this about the souls of His time:
Luke 16:
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Yes, but where is his spirit?
You just assume that because of dispensationalism and tradition.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
You are likely relying on this verse to argue that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses because they are the only ones never having "died" in Scripture. However, notice carefully what the verse says. It says that it is appointed ONCE to die. Do you believe that Jesus, Peter, and Paul actually raised people from the dead? If so, what happened to the ones who were raised? Obviously, they had to die again. According to Heb 9:27, it is appointed to die once, yet the ones raised from the dead died twice. It does not say "at lease once," it means once. Therefore, the statement is intended to be a general statement, not exhaustive to every individual. God can grant exceptions by taking a few of His servants to heaven without them having to "die" at all in the conventional sense, and He can also have some die twice. Nevertheless, the general principle of Heb 9:27 stands.
Your contention of Enoch and Elijah being "somewhere" (but not in heaven), I assume, is based on your hyperdispensational presupposition that only members of the "Body of Christ" go to heaven, and the rest (Israel) are eternally destined to live on the [new heavens and new] earth. The Scriptures say clearly that Elijah was taken into heaven. No amount of contention that it was just the atmosphere, and God dumped Elijah on some deserted island or other hidden place will explain away the plain meaning. Also, when God "took" Enoch, it would imply that God brought Enoch to "where" God is (our Father which art in heaven).
Why do you see Enoch a gentile as a witness to the Jews in the tribulation? Enoch was not a Jew and the two witnesses are Jews.
Many teach the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah as Christ met them at the Mount of Transfiguration.
beameup
Member
shamayim H8064 is used of:
the sky (abode of birds)
the universe (abode of the stars)
the abode of God
beameup
Member
Like very many things in the Baptist world, somehow these "conclusions" are assumed over many years,
but there is nothing in Revelation that says they have to be "Jews". Many things can be "uncovered"
in the text with a very SPECIFIC Holy Spirit guided examination.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a
thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. - Rev 11:3
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Yes but the one thing we need to see is that Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration met with and talked with Moses and Elijah, not Enoch and Elijah. The time was not yet for the two witnesses at that time but was He meeting with them to let them there would be more time and He allowed the 3 disciples to see it and have it recorded to let us know who the witnesses would be.
Enoch doesn't fit because he was a gentile and taken out prior to judgement.
Heaven was not available in the OT times to believers. There was a place called Paradise that was separated from hell by a "gulf" (whatever that is). It was possible for those in hell to see into Paradise, but they weren't able to cross over to it. It's also possible that Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven and were special cases.
beameup
Member
I might just note that the disciples ask Jesus about Elias (Elijah) later in the same chapters, but conspicuously no mention of Moses [see Mk 9 & Mt 17].
With this in mind, it is jumping to conclusions to "assume" that the Two Witnesses of Revelation are Moses and Elijah.
Since many Christians feel that the bene ha 'elohim ["the watchers" in the Book of Enoch, and the "sons of god"
in Genesis 6] will return as part of the deception of the end-times. In this case, Enoch will testify that they are
fallen angels and not "saviors of mankind".
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, [ie: true miracles] to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. - Mk 13:22
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: - 2 Thes 2:11
Or, as I suggest, if you are pretrib, Daniel and John, as they are both witnesses to the end time events:
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Rev 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Oh I am pre-trib, pre-mil but have never heard it to be Daniel and John.
Old as the hills
The bible speaks of three heavens, one is the atmosphere where birds fly, the second heaven is space where the son and moon and stars hang out, and the third heaven is the abode of God. So Elijah went into the atmosphere, the first heaven and disappeared in the clouds. But according to John 3:13 he did not go to the third heaven, because no one had when Jesus walked the earth.
Paradise and the third heaven are the same place, no distinction. Paul uses them interchangeably.
The bible speaks of three heavens, one is the atmosphere where birds fly, the second heaven is space where the son and moon and stars hang out, and the third heaven is the abode of God. So Elijah went into the atmosphere, the first heaven and disappeared in the clouds. But according to John 3:13 he did not go to the third heaven, because no one had when Jesus walked the earth.
Paradise and the third heaven are the same place, no distinction. Paul uses them interchangeably.
I knew that
- :tonofbricks: Well it was late at nght -
Anyways thanks BMU!!:thumbsup:
And I appreciate all the answers!
convicted1
Guest
And, praytell, where is the "somewhere" at? Scripture please....
The end of Deuteronomy:
(Deu 34:5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
(Deu 34:6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Yet, Moses appeared with Elijah, (who was taken up to heaven), at the mount of transfiguration; it seems that he must have been resurrected but I don't think the scriptures confirm this.
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convicted1
Guest
I was asking BMU about where in the scriptures does it state that Elijah and Enoch were being held "somewhere", until they are to be dead and lying in the street. Sorry about the vagueness of that question.