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Another Determinist Question
- Thread starter InTheLight
- Start date
This is double speak gibberish. Ordain means to establish or to issue an order. Ordain DOES mean cause to happen.
More gibberish. "Ordain to allow" is an oxymoron.
My question was: "How can the Spirit be grieved?" Or if you like, "Why does God allow His Spirit to be grieved."
Yep, the old "appeal to mystery" clause, a favorite of Calvinists.
In The Light,
You have to think about if you want an answer ...or not. here is a question for you ITL.
Why did God destroy the world of the ungodly with water in the Flood....instead of the ebola virus???
Why did God make the Sun burn in a way that it looks yellow to us coming into our atmosphere.....instead of green???
There is no mystery, or secret things...so maybe you can tell us.
If you can...answer the questions God asked Job in chapter 38,39.
I'm not taking on your "assignment" which is a thinly veiled attempt to change the subject.
Or...you cannot answer the same questions you want us to answer because they are secret things that God has not revealed:laugh::laugh::laugh:
the old non cal cop out
The color of sunlight is not a theological question; neither is the flood vs. e-bola.
There are alternative theological explanations as to why God allows the Holy Spirit to be grieved, but since it doesn't fit with Calvinism, you say it is a mystery.
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Sure there are answers.....but the question is...do you want an answer.
grieve not the Spirit.....grieve is a word that has to do with not loving. we can only grieve a person who loves us,when we disappoint them.
We love God and keep His commandments.....or we greive the Spirit when we sin. We are still in a body of flesh that can sin. God commands that we greive not the Spirit who indwells us;
Paul gives this clear example;
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
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First, don't make this personal with comments like gibberish. Second, sorry, but it doesn't.
no it's not. God can decide something will happen but that doesn't mean God directly caused the event to happen. God knows everything that will happen and could possibly happen. nothing happens outside of God's control. So when the guy robs the bank, God knew that would happen and decided that the event would take place instead of stopping that event. This doesn't mean that God caused the event to happen. But God did preordain/predestine(determine beforehand) that the event would take place.
Again, enough with the childish comments. I haven't said them to you because of your misunderstanding of the term.
What's wrong with the appeal to mystery. Do you think you know everything about God and understand everything? If not, then you must appeal to mystery on some things. Jonathan said this earlier...
Why does God allow the Spirit to be grieved. Why don't you give us your answer on the matter? You do agree that God is in control of all events correct and that nothing is outside his control. So why does God allow His Spirit to be grieved.
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jonathan.borland
Active Member
Because God is compassionate and interacts with his created beings in real and not just apparent ways. Since God is omniscient, to God these interactions happened in eternity past, but to us they are happening in the present. Therefore God makes no actual decisions in the present although to us it may seem that way. It also follows that our every evil action in the present, such as any that grieves the Holy Spirit, has real consequences even though those consequences were already determined in eternity past. But since we are finite, for all intents and purposes our actions have real consequences in the present and we will be held accountable for each and every one. To us our actions and their consequences have not yet been determined, but to God, who knows all our future actions and has already determined their consequences, they are already set in stone. The Calvinist, in my opinion, generally neglects the implications of God's attribute of omniscience in his interactions with creation, or, as it would appear to me, has God forming his determinative will with a limited or defective form of omniscience, although they would never admit to that.
This Jon is where my argument with you begins. You do admit that it is your opinion (so then its probably not fact) ....then you make this blanket statement painting ALL Calvinists in one color.....thats very broad & not correct. FYI, most Baptistic Calvies are not in keeping with many of the concepts of Calvinism as defined by our Presbyterian & Reformed brethren (Infant Baptism, Sacramental, Sabbath Regulations as defined in the OT etc). The issue of the extreme doctrine of Absolute Predestination of all things is NOT held by many Calvinists either. Most believe predestination rests in salvation of the elect only, therefore its NOT absolute. Ive explained this many times however it appears to fall on Deaf Ears. I suppose that those type of beliefs dont have the making of good argument so its gets ignored. I gotta ask you....why do you do that?
jonathan.borland
Active Member
To me it's kind of hard to pin you buggers down for the multiplicity of your views on this topic.
Why even try...we are all Christian brethren here & we are all being sanctified till that day.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
God through his omniscience even took the free will and emotions of his created animals into account for the forming of his plan before the foundations of the world! How interactive our God is with the free will and needs of his creation!
[ESV] Num. 22:33 The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live.”
And God actually does value his human creation much more than sparrows and the animal kingdom.
[ESV] Num. 22:33 The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live.”
And God actually does value his human creation much more than sparrows and the animal kingdom.
JB,
Each christian is at a different level of growth and understanding. It is not quite an exact carbon copy relica....coming off an assembly line.
When you see differences it is most times an opportunity to help each other come to a better understanding.
A godly Pastor who labors in the word and doctrine....should....come across different.both in conduct and doctrine....then a young christian....or one who is self taught.
There is a clear distinction overall as there should be. The younger or self taught believer should express himself as best he can, but when and if an older brother comes along...he should be teachable.
Young christians should seek out this kind of correction , so as to serve our Lord to the best of our ability.
Some of the Pastors who are mature in the faith avoid these forums because of the argumentative nature of what happens in here. They would post correct truth...but as paul posted the other day...it would be to cast pearls before swine.
JB,
this is a good read you might find helpful:
http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Simmons/chapter19.htm
I do not enjoy this kind of discussion , but it can help remove obstacles that which obscures bible truth.
I know we want to think it is just between us and God. However there is one who is the prince of the power of the air to consider. The deceiver of the world.
Can a man truly have "free will" who is deceived? Can a deceived man even know he is deceived? Doesn't one who is deceived actually believe he is doing the will of God? Let's look at Saul the morning he left for Damascus to put those of the way in prison or maybe even death. Was he a deceived man? Whose will was he doing? Was he acting according to his own free will?
Saul the pharisee who believed in the resurrection the morning he left for Damascus did not believe Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ for he did not believe he had been raised from the dead. Three days later he believed Jesus of Nazareth was the resurrected Christ. Why?
A side note question for all on the board. Someone may would put it to a poll, I do not know how.
Did Saul of Tarsus ever personally hear Jesus say, Woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites?
I think maybe so.
Can a man truly have "free will" who is deceived? Can a deceived man even know he is deceived? Doesn't one who is deceived actually believe he is doing the will of God? Let's look at Saul the morning he left for Damascus to put those of the way in prison or maybe even death. Was he a deceived man? Whose will was he doing? Was he acting according to his own free will?
Saul the pharisee who believed in the resurrection the morning he left for Damascus did not believe Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ for he did not believe he had been raised from the dead. Three days later he believed Jesus of Nazareth was the resurrected Christ. Why?
A side note question for all on the board. Someone may would put it to a poll, I do not know how.
Did Saul of Tarsus ever personally hear Jesus say, Woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites?
I think maybe so.
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I agree with this.
This idea that God stops events from happening is a very interesting topic in itself. Of course there is no way of knowing if, or how often this happens. Good fodder for another thread.
I see that you are back to saying preordain does not mean cause to happen. That's non-sensical.
Preordain DOES mean to cause to happen.
Yes, as I recall I am the questioner in this thread. Therefore I will not give my answer.
Anybody?......Anybody?....Bueller? Bueller?