Made righteous by Christ obedience.

[savedbymercy]

bib

You missed the point!

No you missed it !

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

This refers to PROPHECY or can't you read?

Of course it does. Christ had sheep to gather in the future from the gentile world, the same thing as Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You do not have no kind of biblical sense, you better find a new call title, you sure don't know the bible !

The Prodigal Son which Illustrates the Elects Fall in Adam, was always a Child of God, a Lost Son or Child. In fact, there had to be redeemer rights for Christ to come and redeem those He did, they were His fallen brethren. When Scripture says Heb 2:14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Children there does not mean all regenerated believers, its speaking of all the elect who fell in adam, the Children of God. You know not the simplest truths of scripture.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

jonc



Correct ! Adam and Eve pictured Christ and the Church in their Creation, Paul links that in Eph 5:30-32

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



Absolutely !



Yes, that is what I was saying. However both seeds needed to be brought into the world physically by procreation, and God used Physical relations of a man and woman to do that. God's Purpose for Creating Adam and Eve was for the Godly Seed of the Elect Mal 2:15

And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

Thats the seed of the woman ! God's purpose to bring in the seed of the serpent occasioned man to sin through eve, and because of this, God was Just in making her conceptions no longer for the Godly seed alone, but for the serpents seed as well, So God said He was going to multiply her conception, to make it more than for just one race of the Godly seed, but now also to the ungodly seed. Gen 3:15-16

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Because of sin, Adam and Eve would have to bring into the world not only their seed, that of the Godly or Elect, but that of the Serpents as well.

Adam and Eve had Normal Sexual Relations, and she conceived and brought forth cain Gen 4:1

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

But this conception was out of the serpents seed, how do we know ? 1 Jn 3:12

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Cain who was of that wicked one ! The word of is important here, it is the greek prep ek
and it primarily denotes origin:

out of, from, by, away from

So cain, though born through normal relations of a man and woman was yet constituted by God as being out of the Wicked One, a Child of the Wicked One, Just as these in My Lord's Parable Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Now sense you did critique what I posted earlier fairly well, please do the same for this post, not saying you will agree, but at least see where I am coming from !

Let me see if I get this right.

You believe there are men who are created in the image of God and that there are men not created in the image of God?

But you believe this in only a spiritual sense?

Therefore all men look alike and have the same qualities physically just not spiritually?

My question for you is this. Did God create all men? Or did Satan create immitation men? And if he did when did he do this and how?

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



Of course it does. Christ had sheep to gather in the future from the gentile world, the same thing as Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Children there does not mean all regenerated believers, its speaking of all the elect who fell in adam, the Children of God. You know not the simplest truths of scripture.

The prophetic sense is based upon God's eternal purpose that is predetermined to be carried out by God. You have it fulfilled prior to its fulfillment!!! The elect are not ALREADY saved, ALREADY children of God or ALREADY sheep, but they are saved, children, sheep according to God's purpose of election "TO" salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

They are "lost" sheep by elective purpose but they are not sheep by nature until the new birth. They are "lost" children of God by elective purpose but they are "children of wrath" and "children of disobedience" EVEN AS OTHERS until election is carried out in new birth.

You are making the stupid assertion that God's purpose has alread been accomplished before it is accomplished when in fact it is merely prophetic until it is accomplished.

 

[savedbymercy]

think

Did God create all men?

Yes, but not in Adam. The seed of the serpent was created in him, that's why Christ calls him a Father Jn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Father is the carrier of the seed ! God told satan that he had a seed Gen 3:15 !

Yes, God created everything, everyone for His Purpose Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The Wicked are the Children of the Wicked One. Cain was one 1 Jn 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

The Tares Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

This is traced back to the Truth of Gen 3:15

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

The prophetic sense is based upon God's eternal purpose that is predetermined to be carried out by God. You have it fulfilled prior to its fulfillment!!! The elect are not ALREADY saved, ALREADY children of God or ALREADY sheep, but they are saved, children, sheep according to God's purpose of election "TO" salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

Quit trying to put scripture against scripture. The Children of God are the Elect, the Sheep, wheter converted or not !

They are "lost" sheep by elective purpose but they are not sheep by nature until the new birth.

Thats a lie, you have no scripture to verify such a lie. They are Lost sheep by nature as well. Thats Illustrated throughout scripture. Lk 15:4-5

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

You are pathetic liar and deceiver sir.

 

[The Biblicist]

think



Yes, but not in Adam. The seed of the serpent was created in him, that's why Christ calls him a Father Jn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Father is the carrier of the seed ! God told satan that he had a seed Gen 3:15 !

Yes, God created everything, everyone for His Purpose Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The Wicked are the Children of the Wicked One. Cain was one 1 Jn 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

The Tares Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

This is traced back to the Truth of Gen 3:15

Complete absolute hogwashy! All mankind was created IN ADAM as "in Adam ALL DIE"! The children of Satan are those who are born with a DEPRAVED NATURE and are "CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE" and "CHILDREN OF WRATH" and the elect are EVEN AS OTHERS! All mankind come into this world with the nature of Satan - children of disobedience.

"Her seed" refers to Jesus Christ and the "seed of the serpent" refer to all mankind "in Adam" who subjected themselves to Satan and are born with a nature just like his - depraved, disobedient, at war with God, not subject to the law of God.

This garbage that SBG is promoting comes straight from hell.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

think



Yes, but not in Adam. The seed of the serpent was created in him, that's why Christ calls him a Father Jn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Father is the carrier of the seed ! God told satan that he had a seed Gen 3:15 !

Yes, God created everything, everyone for His Purpose Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The Wicked are the Children of the Wicked One. Cain was one 1 Jn 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

The Tares Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

This is traced back to the Truth of Gen 3:15

Ok. Now when you say in Adam. I must ask are Adam and Eve the biological parents of all humanity?

 

[savedbymercy]

Cain not of Eve's Seed !

When Eve brought forth cain, notice her words Gen 4:1

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

This statement appears to be very detached and general from Eve, however, when she bare Seth she said Gen 4:25

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

You see,cain was not her seed, she Knew that ! Yes he was a man, but not of their seed that God purposed as the godly seed Mal 2:15

And did not he make one[Adam and Eve]? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed.

Now evidently Abel was recognized by her as her seed, simply by what she said in vs 25.

Even when Lk records Christ's genealogy according to the flesh, it does not include Adam and Eve's Firstborn cain but goes back to Seth, then of course Adam Lk 3:37-38

37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Seth was the seed in place of Abel, who died for Christ's sake !

Then it was after Seth was born that it was reiterated that Man was made in the Image of God Gen 5:1-3

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Why was not cain mentioned here ? Was he not Adam's Firstborn ? Because cain belonged to the devil, even though he was brought forth by the normal means of relations between a man and woman !

God ordained that the means by which satan's seed would be populated into the Earth for His Purposes was by natural childbirth.

Now, even though Adam was not originally the Federal Head of satans seed, yet God did make him the natural head of satans seed, hence cain was born to prove it right off the bat.

No doubt they Adam and Eve had natural affection for cain, thats why God told Eve that in sorrow she would bare children, it was no doubt a grief for Eve to care for her firstborn son to know that he was because of her transgression and he would never be saved !

But no, Cain was not in the Image and Likeness of God seed, He was in the image and Likeness of His Father the Devil and His Lusts would he do !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

When Eve brought forth cain, notice her words Gen 4:1

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

This statement appears to be very detached and general from Eve, however, when she bare Seth she said Gen 4:25

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

You see,cain was not her seed, she Knew that ! Yes he was a man, but not of their seed that God purposed as the godly seed Mal 2:15

And did not he make one[Adam and Eve]? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed.

Now evidently Abel was recognized by her as her seed, simply by what she said in vs 25.

Even when Lk records Christ's genealogy according to the flesh, it does not include Adam and Eve's Firstborn cain but goes back to Seth, then of course Adam Lk 3:37-38

37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Seth was the seed in place of Abel, who died for Christ's sake !

Then it was after Seth was born that it was reiterated that Man was made in the Image of God Gen 5:1-3

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Why was not cain mentioned here ? Was he not Adam's Firstborn ? Because cain belonged to the devil, even though he was brought forth by the normal means of relations between a man and woman !

God ordained that the means by which satan's seed would be populated into the Earth for His Purposes was by natural childbirth.

Now, even though Adam was not originally the Federal Head of satans seed, yet God did make him the natural head of satans seed, hence cain was born to prove it right off the bat.

No doubt they Adam and Eve had natural affection for cain, thats why God told Eve that in sorrow she would bare children, it was no doubt a grief for Eve to care for her firstborn son to know that he was because of her transgression and he would never be saved !

But no, Cain was not in the Image and Likeness of God seed, He was in the image and Likeness of His Father the Devil and His Lusts would he do !

A long reply for a simple yes. But now I understand you. Another question, was Cain born with a soul and is he an eternal being like Adam?

 

[savedbymercy]

think

But now I understand you

Ok then explain exactly what you understand about the post ?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

think



Ok then explain exactly what you understand about the post ?

Right now I'm trying to differentiate it between a suprainfralapsarian perspective and your "seed theology". I honestly don't see a difference, which is why I'm asking for more clarification. At this point the only difference would be whether you believe those who are of Satan's seed had a soul or not and one other point are only those people who have a genetic ancencestry of Seth able to be saved? If you say that yes Satan's seed has a soul and that no genetics have nothing to do with salvation then I don't see how what you are saying is any different than saying that God ordained those who would go to hell and ordained those who would go to heaven. Or that God created certain men with the intention that they go to hell. Or Hypercalvinism view with the Elect and double predestsination.

 

[The Biblicist]

If you say that yes Satan's seed has a soul and that no genetics have nothing to do with salvation then I don't see how what you are saying is any different than saying that God ordained those who would go to hell and ordained those who would go to heaven. Or that God created certain men with the intention that they go to hell. Or Hypercalvinism view with the Elect and double predestsination.

Now you got his number!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: Or Hypercalvinism view with the Elect and double predestsination.

HP: When one takes the view of total moral depravity from birth, I would see it as absolutely impossible to logically avoid some being the lucky elect and all others predestined to hell.(double predestination) You would obviously feel that such views are wrong, (at least that is what I hear you saying) So, where is the logical disconnect in your view which would realistically and logically distinguish your views from those you associate with hyper- Calvinism and double predestination? Do you not hold to total moral depravity from birth?

Just asking:thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: When one takes the view of total moral depravity from birth, I would see it as absolutely impossible to logically avoid some being the lucky elect and all others predestined to hell.(double predestination) You would obviously feel that such views are wrong, (at least that is what I hear you saying) So, where is the logical disconnect in your view which would realistically and logically distinguish your views from those you associate with hyper- Calvinism and double predestination? Do you not hold to total moral depravity from birth?

Just asking:thumbs:

Moral depravity from birth forces you to a position of double predestination ONLY if such depravity is attributed to God rather than to human responsibility.

My interpretation of scriptures does not attribute moral depravity to God but to human responsibility and I have explained this to you on a number of occassions.

God created free will which by definition demands the power of contrary choice. God created free will AND clearly and explicitly stated the proper and improper use of free will along with consequences for its misuse.

Now, some can argue God could have intervened and prevented Satan and Adam from making the wrong choice but would not that invalidate "free" choice? Hence, God must have intentionally permitted the wrong choice and therefore sin occurred by God's permissive will and thus sin was willed by God under those terms and conditions. However, it is equally willed by God that both Satan and Man be completely responsible for the use of free choice and thereby moral depravity is simply the just consequence by HUMAN NATURE as it is existed completely in the person of Adam. Death in its comprehensive meaning and application was "passed" down to all men through natural regeneration after its own kind as all mankind had sinned when Adam sinned because the totality of HUMAN NATURE acted when Adam acted.

Now, you may not agree with my assessment/interpretation but you merely asked how can one believe in total moral depravity from birth and not believe in double predestination and I have answered that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: When one takes the view of total moral depravity from birth, I would see it as absolutely impossible to logically avoid some being the lucky elect and all others predestined to hell.(double predestination) You would obviously feel that such views are wrong, (at least that is what I hear you saying) So, where is the logical disconnect in your view which would realistically and logically distinguish your views from those you associate with hyper- Calvinism and double predestination? Do you not hold to total moral depravity from birth?

Just asking:thumbs:

First I'm trying to accurately define SBM "two seed" view. The traditional "two seed" view holds that satan had intercourse with Eve giving birth to Cain. SBM does not hold this view and as yet I can't differentiate it between itself and Suprainfalapsarian view.

My own view of originial sin? Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam.

 

[savedbymercy]

ts

Right now I'm trying to differentiate it between a suprainfralapsarian perspective and your "seed theology".

Are you going to do as I asked you or not ? Once again explain what I have said point by point, Jonc did it quite well..

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ts



Are you going to do as I asked you or not ? Once again explain what I have said point by point, Jonc did it quite well..

I don't know why you are avoiding my questions as they are simple. However, You said Jon C. explained it quite well. Ok, I'll put what John C said here:

Please correct me if I’m mistaking, but what I understand you to be saying is that both the elect and the non-elect (both seeds) are physically the same – one may have two children, each of different seeds (spiritually different races). The woman’s “sorrow” is that she will, after the fall, bring forth both the elect (the godly seed, one’s in the image of God) and the non-elect (the serpents seed, whose father is the devil).

If I understand you correctly, then salvation is in a sense a separation of the wheat from the tares. Christ came to save that which were lost, that is, those who are of the godly seed that belong to Him - . Which is why I brought up Genetics and the connection to Seth- The elect are not saved because of what they do, but because of what they are, because they are created in the image of God.- again why I brought up genetics - Christ died to deliver the elect from God’s wrath, to redeem the godly seed out of the wrath to come. Appeasing God’s anger, Christ saves those who were created for salvation.

From what you state in post #9, Convicted1’s statements regarding the “two seed” theory is not your view in that you do not present Satan as having sexual relations with Eve. It is instead a spiritual issue. The flesh is the same, but the spirit is not. - which is why I brought up the issue of having a soul - Men are men, but the “elect” were never the “non-elect.”

If I have misstated anything, I apologize, but this is my understanding of the view that you present here thus far – so please correct me if I have made an error regarding your words.
__________________

Now as I've said if you suggest that both types of men have souls and genetics has nothing to do with salvation then how is your "two seed" view any different from Supralapsarinism? How is that a difficult question? Just in case you don't know what Supralapsarianism is; it is defined here

is the view that God's decrees of election and reprobation logically preceded the decree of the fall - wikipedia

 

[savedbymercy]

think c

I don't know why you are avoiding my questions as they are simple

I answered a question of yours with no problem, and could have answered this one with no problem, but since you have avoided my request these Two times, I will discontinue any further discourse with you as of now ! This issue requires for me to know that you exactly know what I stated and why !

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

God created free will

Another lie. No will is ever detached from God's Sovereign control and Purpose. Adam sinned and brought sin into the world because God purposed him to, he really had no choice in the matter, though he was made responsible. God made him to be responsible for bringing sin and death into the world, because this world was created for a Soteriological and redemptive purpose in Christ ! Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: