Death passed upon all men

[The Biblicist]

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1. The "one man" is Adam

2. The "sin" is that which God forewarned Adam not to do in Genesis. 2:16-17a

3. The "death" is that which God described in Genesis 2:17b.

4. "death by sin" refers to the death described in Gen. 2:17b as the penalty of violating God's law in Gen. 2;16-17a.

5. The nature of this penalty is death in its most comprehensive nature which is defined in Gen. 2:16 more literally "in the day....dying that shalt surely die."

a. Immediate spiritual death "in the day thou eatest"
b. Progressive dying culimatining in physical death
c. Terminal eternal death.


CONCLUSION: Therefore the whole phrase "as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin" refers to the Adamic sin and consequences in Gen. 2:16-17


1. "and so" - "houto" "after this manner"! After what manner?

After the manner "by one man" sin entered into the world

After the manner "by one man" death by sin

After this manner "death passed upon all men"

The whole of human nature existed in Adam when he sinned. Thus the whole of human nature was subjected to "death" comprehensively. "After this manner" by one man "death passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind as all of human kind is being derived from human nature as it existed in "one man."

Hence, every child is born into this world with a nature subjected to death in its comprehensive character "after this manner" or "by one man' sin and death by sin." Proof is that every infant is subject to death immediately upon conception and there is no other precedent cause than "by one man's sin."

"By one man's disobedience" after this manner "many be dead.

"By one mans disobedience" after this manner "many were made sinners"


Death became inherent to human nature when Adam sinned and death was "passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind because death is inherent with physical conception and birth.

 

[DaChaser1]

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1. The "one man" is Adam

2. The "sin" is that which God forewarned Adam not to do in Genesis. 2:16-17a

3. The "death" is that which God described in Genesis 2:17b.

4. "death by sin" refers to the death described in Gen. 2:17b as the penalty of violating God's law in Gen. 2;16-17a.

5. The nature of this penalty is death in its most comprehensive nature which is defined in Gen. 2:16 more literally "in the day....dying that shalt surely die."

a. Immediate spiritual death "in the day thou eatest"
b. Progressive dying culimatining in physical death
c. Terminal eternal death.


CONCLUSION: Therefore the whole phrase "as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin" refers to the Adamic sin and consequences in Gen. 2:16-17


1. "and so" - "houto" "after this manner"! After what manner?

After the manner "by one man" sin entered into the world

After the manner "by one man" death by sin

After this manner "death passed upon all men"

The whole of human nature existed in Adam when he sinned. Thus the whole of human nature was subjected to "death" comprehensively. "After this manner" by one man "death passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind as all of human kind is being derived from human nature as it existed in "one man."

Hence, every child is born into this world with a nature subjected to death in its comprehensive character "after this manner" or "by one man' sin and death by sin." Proof is that every infant is subject to death immediately upon conception and there is no other precedent cause than "by one man's sin."

"By one man's disobedience" after this manner "many be dead.

"By one mans disobedience" after this manner "many were made sinners"


Death became inherent to human nature when Adam sinned and death was "passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind because death is inherent with physical conception and birth.

proves 2 main doctrinal points byt his passage!

one that ALL are born sinners/seperated by god at birth, NOT when make forst choice to actually commit sin... Sinners by BOTh birth/choice!

other is that supports penal substitionary atonement as Adam represented before God as head of fallen humanity, while jesus as second Adam stands before God as head of redeemed humanity!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1. The "one man" is Adam

2. The "sin" is that which God forewarned Adam not to do in Genesis. 2:16-17a

3. The "death" is that which God described in Genesis 2:17b.

4. "death by sin" refers to the death described in Gen. 2:17b as the penalty of violating God's law in Gen. 2;16-17a.

5. The nature of this penalty is death in its most comprehensive nature which is defined in Gen. 2:16 more literally "in the day....dying that shalt surely die."

a. Immediate spiritual death "in the day thou eatest"
b. Progressive dying culimatining in physical death
c. Terminal eternal death.


CONCLUSION: Therefore the whole phrase "as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin" refers to the Adamic sin and consequences in Gen. 2:16-17


1. "and so" - "houto" "after this manner"! After what manner?

After the manner "by one man" sin entered into the world

After the manner "by one man" death by sin

After this manner "death passed upon all men"

The whole of human nature existed in Adam when he sinned. Thus the whole of human nature was subjected to "death" comprehensively. "After this manner" by one man "death passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind as all of human kind is being derived from human nature as it existed in "one man."

Hence, every child is born into this world with a nature subjected to death in its comprehensive character "after this manner" or "by one man' sin and death by sin." Proof is that every infant is subject to death immediately upon conception and there is no other precedent cause than "by one man's sin."

"By one man's disobedience" after this manner "many be dead.

"By one mans disobedience" after this manner "many were made sinners"


Death became inherent to human nature when Adam sinned and death was "passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind because death is inherent with physical conception and birth.

You wont get a disagreement from me on this exegesis my brother.....well done :applause::thumbs:

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Death became inherent to human nature when Adam sinned and death was "passed upon all men" through reproduction after its own kind because death is inherent with physical conception and birth.

Actually death became inherent when Eve sinned, who was of Adam, for the Man was not in the Transgression but the woman 1 Tim 2:14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam's Transgression was when Eve Transgressed being deceived ! Now, Adam was held accountable for her Transgression because he was the head ! And Adam died [To God] the moment Eve Transgressed ! His receiving the fruit from her hands and likewise eating was evidence that he was dead to God !

 

[The Biblicist]

Actually death became inherent when Eve sinned, who was of Adam, for the Man was not in the Transgression but the woman 1 Tim 2:14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam's Transgression was when Eve Transgressed being deceived ! Now, Adam was held accountable for her Transgression because he was the head ! And Adam died [To God] the moment Eve Transgressed ! His receiving the fruit from her hands and likewise eating was evidence that he was dead to God !

Not so! "By one MAN sin entered into the world." Eve transgressed but Eve was not the representative head of the human race and therefore sin did not enter the world through Eve but through Adam. Adam did not sin when Eve sinned but sinned when he WILLFULLY partook of the fruit she gave him. Read the text - it does not say death reigned from Eve! But "death reigned FROM ADAM to Moses...."

Furthermore, it is not Eve that is compared to Christ. Christ is not called the "last Eve" but the "last Adam" nor is Christ called the "second woman" but the "second MAN."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings The Biblicist,

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1. The "one man" is Adam

2. The "sin" is that which God forewarned Adam not to do in Genesis. 2:16-17a

3. The "death" is that which God described in Genesis 2:17b.

4. "death by sin" refers to the death described in Gen. 2:17b as the penalty of violating God's law in Gen. 2;16-17a.

5. The nature of this penalty is death in its most comprehensive nature which is defined in Gen. 2:16 more literally "in the day....dying that shalt surely die."

a. Immediate spiritual death "in the day thou eatest"
b. Progressive dying culimatining in physical death
c. Terminal eternal death.


CONCLUSION: Therefore the whole phrase "as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin" refers to the Adamic sin and consequences in Gen. 2:16-17

The literal meaning of “thou shalt surely die” in Genesis 2:17 is given in the KJV Margin: Heb: “dying thou shat die”. The word “surely” is an acceptable translation but does not appear in the literal Hebrew as you suggest. I would agree though that it is similar to your suggestion in your item b, that on the day that Adam sinned as a result of God’s judgement there was a process of deterioration commenced that would end in death. There is a similar Hebrew expression in Genesis 2:16 “thou mayest freely eat”, and the margin says Heb: “eating thou shalt eat”. They both suggest a process that results in completion.

I believe then that Genesis 2:17 speaks of death in its simplest form. After Adam and Eve had sinned, they were judged and they were sentenced to return to the dust. This is cessation of being. The sentence upon Adam is:
Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I am not sure what you believe concerning Item a, I have reservations with this. To say that Adam and Eve were spiritually dead may imply that they are not open to spiritual ideas. But in the garden God commenced a process of teaching that resulted at least in the faith and response of Abel. Adam and Eve were taught that their own method of covering their nakedness was unacceptable, and needed God’s provision in the skins of a slain animal. This was probably a lamb, typical of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world. This teaching appears to be reflected in the sacrifice that Abel offered.

There was much instruction also in the promise concerning the seed of Eve:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
So I do not know what you mean by the expression “spiritual death”. Abel, a descendant of Adam and Eve was spiritually receptive to the Divine teaching.

Also I am uncertain of your Item c. Terminal eternal death. In the various events and instructions to Adam and Eve there is a pointing forward to the availability of life. In the promise concerning the seed of Eve, there is an indication that her seed would overcome the serpent and his seed. There is the indication of the skins that their sin would be covered. And the tree of life was still there, and the way to the tree was there, even though it was guarded. This still pointed forward to the possibility of gaining acceptance and partaking of the fruit. This awaited the full revelation of Jesus as the “way”, and those who are united with him will be given access to the tree of life.
Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
So I am unsure of what you are saying in Item c. Terminal eternal death.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent questions TrevorL:thumbs:

To the list: Physical death is not the penalty for sin for more than one reason. One reason is that if physical death was a penalty for sin, all would die, which is not, nor has it been, the case. Enoch and Elijah never saw death and neither will those that are alive and remain to see the coming of the Lord in the air. Physical death is not a universal end of all humanity.

Secondly, if Christ took upon Himself the penalty of sin, and physical death was that penalty, no Christian would be required to pay for that which Christ already paid for. Physical death as a penalty for sin, would suggest the atonement could not set aside the penalty for sin to be paid. It would show Christ's suffering and death unable to succor one from the penalty of sin, a preposterous and unscriptural notion at best.

Believers will never suffer the only true penalty of sin, i.e., eternal separation from God.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Not so! "By one MAN sin entered into the world." Eve transgressed but Eve was not the representative head of the human race

Her Head was and He was held accountable. God considered Adam and Eve as Adam Gen 5:1-2

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So Eve's Transgression was still Adam's Transgression Rom 5:14 ! But God is just specific regarding who actually was in Transgression 1 Tim 2:14

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

t also pictures Christ and The Church, for it was the Eve, or the Wife that was in Transgression, But the last Adam was held accountable for Her Trans gression !

 

[Michael Wrenn]

proves 2 main doctrinal points byt his passage!

one that ALL are born sinners/seperated by god at birth, NOT when make forst choice to actually commit sin... Sinners by BOTh birth/choice!

other is that supports penal substitionary atonement as Adam represented before God as head of fallen humanity, while jesus as second Adam stands before God as head of redeemed humanity!

Uh, no. Actually, Jesus as the "second Adam" is what Irenaeus's Recapitulation Theory of the atonement teaches.

 

[Moriah]

bib



Actually death became inherent when Eve sinned, who was of Adam, for the Man was not in the Transgression but the woman 1 Tim 2:14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam's Transgression was when Eve Transgressed being deceived ! Now, Adam was held accountable for her Transgression because he was the head ! And Adam died [To God] the moment Eve Transgressed ! His receiving the fruit from her hands and likewise eating was evidence that he was dead to God !

Eve sinned because she was deceived. Adam sinned knowingly breaking a commandment of God.

That is how sin entered the world through one man. See Romans 5:12.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings The Biblicist,

The literal meaning of “thou shalt surely die” in Genesis 2:17 is given in the KJV Margin: Heb: “dying thou shat die”. The word “surely” is an acceptable translation but does not appear in the literal Hebrew as you suggest. I would agree though that it is similar to your suggestion in your item b, that on the day that Adam sinned as a result of God’s judgement there was a process of deterioration commenced that would end in death. There is a similar Hebrew expression in Genesis 2:16 “thou mayest freely eat”, and the margin says Heb: “eating thou shalt eat”. They both suggest a process that results in completion.

Correct! However, in any process there is a beginning and ending point.


A. The Beginning point of Death - Spiritual

The beginning point is spiritual death - meaning SEPARATION from God. To be SPIRITUALLY dead (Eph. 2:1). Ephesians 2:1-3 characterizes what SPIRITUAL death is. The Ephesians had previously been PHYSICALLY alive and yet needed to be SPIRITUALLY quickened. Their previous SPIRITUAL dead condition is fully described in verses 2-3:

1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others….5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Note verse 5 reinforces what is said in verse 1. However, their DEAD condition could not have been PHYSICALLY and therefore must be SPIRITUAL and that SPIRITUAL condition is described as:

1. “dead in trespasses and sins” or separated from God by their trespasses and sins as “dead” does refer to SEPARATION

Isa. 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

2. Their “walk” or manner of daily living characterized “the course of this world”

3. They course of living was due to Demonic indwelling and guidance – “worketh IN the children of disobedience”

4. Their course of living was characterized by “lusts” and “desires of the flesh and mind” that were Satanic inspired.

5. They were by “NATURE” characterized as “children of wrath” or thus subject to God’s condemnation

This was their SPIRITUAL condition that SEPARATED them from God – thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD to God. The SPIRITUALLY dead have Satan working in them and producing trespasses and sins – “now worketh IN the children of disobedience.”

Thus this beginning point is a SPIRITUAL death which also is a PROGRESSIVE spiritual condition.


B. The Terminal Point of Death

Not only is there is beginning and progressive SPIRITUAL condition but there is a beginning point and progressive PHYSICAL condition. As you rightly stated the principle of death – corruption and decay – immediately began with the fall into sin because man was SPIRITUALLY separated from the source of all life both spiritual and physical, thus spiritual and physical death immediately persued. Adam “dying thou shalt surely die” had both a SPIRITUAL and PHYSICAL termination. The physical termination for the MATERIAL body is returning to dust:

Eccl. 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

The spiritual termination for the spirit of man is returning unto God:

Eccl. 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

or as Solomon combines both terminal points for body and soul as follows:

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


The spirit is returned to God in the case of the separated soul which is by “nature the children of wrath” for the “second death”:

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I am not sure what you believe concerning Item a, I have reservations with this. To say that Adam and Eve were spiritually dead may imply that they are not open to spiritual ideas. But in the garden God commenced a process of teaching that resulted at least in the faith and response of Abel. Adam and Eve were taught that their own method of covering their nakedness was unacceptable, and needed God’s provision in the skins of a slain animal. This was probably a lamb, typical of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world. This teaching appears to be reflected in the sacrifice that Abel offered.

There was much instruction also in the promise concerning the seed of Eve:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
So I do not know what you mean by the expression “spiritual death”. Abel, a descendant of Adam and Eve was spiritually receptive to the Divine teaching.

Also I am uncertain of your Item c. Terminal eternal death. In the various events and instructions to Adam and Eve there is a pointing forward to the availability of life. In the promise concerning the seed of Eve, there is an indication that her seed would overcome the serpent and his seed. There is the indication of the skins that their sin would be covered. And the tree of life was still there, and the way to the tree was there, even though it was guarded. This still pointed forward to the possibility of gaining acceptance and partaking of the fruit. This awaited the full revelation of Jesus as the “way”, and those who are united with him will be given access to the tree of life.
Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
So I am unsure of what you are saying in Item c. Terminal eternal death.

You are confusing the possible options with the actual spiritual and physical condition. The possible options do not deny the consequences of sin. For example, Cain chose to reject the provision of restoration from sin’s consequences. Hence, the provision for countering the consequences of sin does not nullify its consequences.

Moreover, the provision for sin does not immediately and automatically reverse all the consequences of sin. For example, neither Adam, Eve, Abel, and Seth, etc. were immediately glorified in body or immediately taken to heaven. Salvation is not instantaneous in all of its applications but there is a progressive aspect.

Thus physical death is the consequence of sin which is not immediately reversed until the resurrection in glorification.

 

[The Biblicist]

Excellent questions TrevorL:thumbs:

To the list: Physical death is not the penalty for sin for more than one reason. One reason is that if physical death was a penalty for sin, all would die, which is not, nor has it been, the case. Enoch and Elijah never saw death and neither will those that are alive and remain to see the coming of the Lord in the air. Physical death is not a universal end of all humanity.

"In Adam ALL DIE" - 1 Cor. 15:21

The only reason that Enoch and Elijah did not die was due to direct intervention by God. However, the rule (trillion to two) is that death is the consequences of sin.

"The wages of sin is death" and the fact that every sacrifice "for sins" must die and that Christ "died" in order to make us dead to the law proves that physical death is the penalty of sin. Even Gehenna is called the second "DEATH" demonstrating that "death" is a penal consequence of sin.

Secondly, if Christ took upon Himself the penalty of sin, and physical death was that penalty, no Christian would be required to pay for that which Christ already paid for. Physical death as a penalty for sin, would suggest the atonement could not set aside the penalty for sin to be paid. It would show Christ's suffering and death unable to succor one from the penalty of sin, a preposterous and unscriptural notion at best.
[

Glorification of the body is proof that physical death is part of the penalty of sin. What you are simply choosing to ignore is that the atonement of Christ is not fully and immediately applied to the saints. If it were as soon as we believed we would be glorified and taken to heaven. Some aspects of salvation are progressive and DELAYED as is glorification which has to do with removing the principle of death - decay and corruption from the body.

So physical death and everything that leads up to and brings on physical death (disease, killing, old age, decay, etc.) is the penalty of sin.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

Physical death as a penalty for sin, would suggest the atonement could not set aside the penalty for sin to be paid.

God ordained that Physical Death would be the last enemy that the Death of Christ would destroy 1 Cor 15:26

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

And for that Purpose and for doubters like yourself, God has ordained that some for whom Christ died will not see Physical Death Period, because of Christ. 1 Cor 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep[physically die], but we shall all be changed,

God's Enemies will always find fault with Truth, for if none ever physically died, then they would claim that Christ's Death really could not raise anyone from the dead, But God will show both !

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Heavenly Pilgrim,

To the list: Physical death is not the penalty for sin for more than one reason. One reason is that if physical death was a penalty for sin, all would die, which is not, nor has it been, the case. Enoch and Elijah never saw death and neither will those that are alive and remain to see the coming of the Lord in the air. Physical death is not a universal end of all humanity.

I disagree. Physical death is the penalty for sin as stated in Genesis 2:17, 3:19-21, Romans 6:23.

Secondly, if Christ took upon Himself the penalty of sin, and physical death was that penalty, no Christian would be required to pay for that which Christ already paid for. Physical death as a penalty for sin, would suggest the atonement could not set aside the penalty for sin to be paid. It would show Christ's suffering and death unable to succor one from the penalty of sin, a preposterous and unscriptural notion at best.

Some of the above shows the difficulty in believing that Jesus died as a substitute. I believe that Jesus’ crucifixion, death and resurrection is representative. Our sins are forgiven if we unite with him through belief and baptism Romans 6:1-14. God was not angry with Jesus, but accepted him, and us in him when he pleaded on our behalf.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

Correct! However, in any process there is a beginning and ending point.
A. The Beginning point of Death - Spiritual
B. The Terminal Point of Death

You are adding thoughts from Ephesians 2 that are not part of the simple meaning of Genesis 2:17 and 3:17-19. The beginning point of death is found in Genesis 2:17 and 3:17-19 where because Adam sinned, the sentence of death was accompanied with the process of corruption that led to death. Genesis 3:19-21 clearly indicates that as a result of his sin Adam was to return to the dust. This physical corruption has passed onto all his descendants.

Thus physical death is the consequence of sin which is not immediately reversed until the resurrection in glorification.

Agreed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

You are adding thoughts from Ephesians 2 that are not part of the simple meaning of Genesis 2:17 and 3:17-19.

This is such an astounding admission of Biblical ignorance that it is amazing one can even say such a thing!

You are denying the most fundmental truths of Scripture. New Testament writers based their whole doctrines of the human nature, sin, death and salvation upon the Old Testament scriptures. Old Testament Scriptures are quoted and properly interpreted and expanded by New Testament writers to give the definitive and comprehensive meaning of sin, death and regeneration.

Unless you accept and understand the far more comprehensive teaching of the apostles on the subject of death there is no hope you can even understand the fundementals of salvation much less the gospel and especially the counter part of spiritual death which is regeneration. Regeneration is spiritual ("what is born of Spirit is spirit"). Regeneration is basically the reverse of spiritual death.

Epheians 2:1-10 is not "adding thoughts" but clear demonstration that mere physical death is nothing but the superficial manifestation of a far deeper problem caused by sin which is SPIRITUAL. Physical death merely makes visibly manifest a far worse death within man. The cause of the process of decay and corruption is SPIRITUAL death just as the conclusion of death is not merely physical but the "second" death which is eternal.

The Biblical meaning of death is separation. It is spiritual separation that brings on the physical consequenes (decay, corruption and separation of the material and immaterial aspects of human nature - Ecc. 12:7; 2 Cor. 5:7-9) and is causative to the spiritual problems and association with Satan as described in Ephesians 2:1-3.

Regeneration/quickening is SPIRITUAL and the direct counter to SPIRITUAL DEATH while glorification is the direct counter to PHYSICAL death.

What you need to do is study the New Testament teaching of Regeneration and what its characteristics are if you want to understand the true cause of physical death as regeneration is the SPIRITUAL counterpart to SPIRITUAL death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrevorL, do you see any distinction between a consequence of sin and a penalty for sin? If physical death is a penalty for sin, and Christ paid for sin, why do believers still see physical death, and again, why have some not seen physical death? There is not one Scripture that states that physical death is the penalty for sin. It indeed could be in certain cases where God literally takes the life one as a direct result of their sin. We do have a few such examples of that happening in Scripture. In such cases I would say that physical death is indeed part of ones punishment for their sin, but again, the only stated penalty for sin in Scripture is eternal separation from God. Clearly Scripture indicates pyhsical depravity and death as a clear consequence of sin, but I see consequences of, and penalties for, as two distinct issues.

 

[The Biblicist]

TrevorL, do you see any distinction between a consequence of sin and a penalty for sin? If physical death is a penalty for sin, and Christ paid for sin, why do believers still see physical death, and again, why have some not seen physical death?

Because salvation is not INSTANTEOUS in all of its aspects. You just as well ask, if Christ paid for sin then why are believers still on earth and not in heaven??? Why are we not INSTANTLY GLORIED if Christ paid for sin!


You have the same problem TrevorL does with DEATH - you don't understand it! Death is more inclusive than mere PHYSICAL death but includes the SECOND death. Death is comprehensive of physical, spiritual, eternal! Thus "death" is the wages of Sin or what you DESERVE and no one can deny that the SECOND death is a PENALTY. However, you want to pick apart "death" rather than admit it is ONE COMPREHENSIVE penalty that begins with Spiritual death - continues with physical dying (progressive decay corrupting) and concludes with eternal death!

"In Adam ALL DIE" is the rule. Elijah and Enoch had to have miraculous divine intervention to avoid the rule and yet may still suffer death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

All have not died physically nor will all die physically. Just because there are two examples given in Scripture does not necessitate there are only two such examples. There well may have been many others for all we know. Your simply passing over these examples and facts does nothing for your position.

We are not talking about glorification or any other red herring. We are speaking of the 'penalty' of sin. Stay on the topic at hand and quit bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the actual topic being discussed. :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

All have not died physically nor will all die physically.

Hebrews 9:27 says it is an "appointment" and the only ones that will not meet that appointment as far as Biblical revelation is concerned are those living when Christ comes again, those which will be transformed, and then there is the exceptions to the rule - Elijah and Enoch. You cannot build a position on the silence of Scripture when it the precepts of scriptues dictate otherwise "In Adam ALL DIE" "It is appointed unto man once to die" - these are the Biblical RULE and presented in scripture as the Biblical RULE. The ones in scripture that do not conform the to Biblical rule are all characterized by one thing only - divine intervention.

We are not talking about glorification or any other red herring. We are speaking of the 'penalty' of sin. Stay on the topic at hand and quit bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the actual topic being discussed. :thumbs:

I simply pointed out the flaw in your logic. Your logic is if death is a penalty and if Christ died for sin, then why do Christians still suffer physical death. There are several flaws in this logic.

1. If sin does not require death as a penalty then why did Christ have to die physically at all or "die for our sins"?????


2. If Christ died for our sins and thus all penalties of sin have been IMMEDIATELY removed then why are we not instantly glorified from all "consequences" of sin (pain, suffering, killing, decay, sickness, etc.)


Your doctrine of death attempts to dissect, isolate certain aspects of death as non-related to other aspects. For example, spiritual death and physical death are not identical aspects of death but they are inseparable in relation to cause and effects. The same can be said about spiritual death and eternal death. You cannot possibly deny that eternal death is not a penalty as the Bible makes it very clear it is a penalty. Yet you cannot see that eternal death is inseparable from spiritual death and physical death is INCLUSIVE with both as it is merely the progressive aspect.

Hence, both physical and eternal death are CONSEQUENCES of spiritual death! Yet eternal death as a CONSEQUENCE is a PENALTY.

So you want to divide and compartmentalize "DEATH" in order to suit your own doctrine.