Death passed upon all men

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Hebrews 9:27 says it is an "appointment" and the only ones that will not meet that appointment as far as Biblical revelation is concerned are those living when Christ comes again, those which will be transformed, and then there is the exceptions to the rule - Elijah and Enoch.

HP: I have never stated that death is not an appointment. I only have said it is NOT the penalty of sin. It is a consequence of sin, just as physical depravity is a consequence of sin and yet is not the penalty of sin. Innocent babies are subject to physical depravity, but they are not being punished for their sin or the sin of any other. The 'penalty for' and 'consequences of' sin are not one in the same. God punishes sin. God does not punish infants nor anyone else for the sins of another according to Scripture.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

I am NOT building anything upon silence. I am showing you by clear example those that have not and will not see death according to the Word of God, That is not silence Biblicist.

Biblicist: 1. If sin does not require death as a penalty then why did Christ have to die physically at all or "die for our sins"?????

HP: Let's all and listen to Biblicist expound on 'why' Christ 'had'' to die physically. As far as I can recall, the only 'reason why' might be said to be, in order to fulfill prophesy, but in reality one can still wonder why. When Biblicst tells us the mind of God as he thinks he knows, ask yourself; could God have done it some other way if He so chose in His wisdom to do so? If not why not?

Biblicist: 2. If Christ died for our sins and thus all penalties of sin have been IMMEDIATELY removed then why are we not instantly glorified from all "consequences" of sin (pain, suffering, killing, decay, sickness, etc.)

HP: We are speaking concerning something that has to be set aside 'in order to' receive salvation period, not something that is a benefit of having been saved that we will receive later. If the penalty of sin has not been paid for in some sense by Christ, no salvation is even possible. Glorification is out of the question entirely until the ransom has been made. Whatever is paid for we will not have to suffer. If we have to suffer still, it could not have been paid for literally. Once the penalty of sin is set aside, we no longer subject to its penalty. We may certainly suffer some of the consequences of sin, but never will we suffer the penalty of sin unless we abort our faith via continued disobedience.

The very fact that there have been and will be some that do not see physical death is living proof it is not the penalty of sin. The penalty for sin is unavoidable until it is completely set aside, and that universally so without exception. Physical death is NOT that way, and can and has been set aside, and has been and will be on certain occasions. Penalties for sin remain the same without variance apart from salvation, while consequences for sin often do vary from person to person. God never will alter the penalty of sin, but consequences for sin are not always incurred in the same manner person to person, even among the righteous.

Concluding Principles: The penalty of sin will never be altered for anyone. It is a universal eternal penalty meted out with exacting justice by God apart from salvation without exception. A consequences of sin, such as physical death, is not a universal penalty for sin AS CLEARLY SEEN BY SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE, and is not, neither must it be, inflicted universally upon all without exception. There is a clear distinction that needs to be understood between the penalty for sin and consequences of sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

I simply pointed out the flaw in your logic. Your logic is if death is a penalty and if Christ died for sin, then why do Christians still suffer physical death. There are several flaws in this logic.[/COLOR]


HP: Let's all and listen to Biblicist expound on 'why' Christ 'had'' to die physically. As far as I can recall, the only 'reason why' might be said to be, in order to fulfill prophesy, but in reality one can still wonder why. When Biblicst tells us the mind of God as he thinks he knows, ask yourself; could God have done it some other way if He so chose in His wisdom to do so? If not why not?

Why didn't God just require a few drops of blood from all the sacrificial offerings instead of their death if death is not the penalty of sin? Why didn't God just require a few drops of Christ's blood if the penalty of sin was not death? Why even use the exact terms "died FOR OUR sins" if death is not the penalty of sin?????

Again, you cannot possibly deny that "death" is inclusive of eternal death and eternal death is undeniably the penalty of sin. However, both physical and eternal death are but the CONSEQUENCES of spiritual death which is the direct penalty of violating the law of God.

Even the text you quote from Ezekiel 18 demonstrates that physical "death" is the penalty of breaking the law as the context is referring to capital punishment.

How do you explain away capital PUNISHMENT for violation of the law - which is physical death?

The entire Old Testament Mosaic legislation repeatedly views PHYSICAL death as the PENALTY of sin both in its sacrifices and terminology "for sin" and in capital punishement "for sins."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist, sorry for the confusion in my post. I had posted a quote from you that I did not need to quote, and then failed to place it in quotes. I edited my post and just eliminated that remark because it was not needed and because I failed to place it in quotes as being your remark, not mine. SORRY!

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, sorry for the confusion in my post. I had posted a quote from you that I did not need to quote, and then failed to place it in quotes. I edited my post and just eliminated that remark because it was not needed and because I failed to place it in quotes as being your remark, not mine. SORRY!

No problem, I make the same mistakes. I forget to remove from my copy another poster and end up giving the credit or discredit to someone different than to whom I am addressing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Why didn't God just require a few drops of blood from all the sacrificial offerings instead of their death if death is not the penalty of sin? Why didn't God just require a few drops of Christ's blood if the penalty of sin was not death? Why even use the exact terms "died FOR OUR sins" if death is not the penalty of sin?????

HP: I have no idea as to why God required what He required. Because His death is involved in the sacrifice for sin, in no wise makes your case that physical death is the penalty for sin. He suffered on a cross as well, yet does that prove suffering on the cross is the penalty for sin? I think not.

Biblicist: Again, you cannot possibly deny that "death" is inclusive of eternal death and eternal death is undeniably the penalty of sin. However, both physical and eternal death are but the CONSEQUENCES of spiritual death which is the direct penalty of violating the law of God.

HP: Eternal death is but a consequence of spiritual death? Again, you are chasing rabbit trails in every direction but to no avail.

Biblicist: Even the text you quote from Ezekiel 18 demonstrates that physical "death" is the penalty of breaking the law as the context is referring to capital punishment.

HP: Capital punishment is NOT the stated or implied context of Ezek. 18:20. It is speaking directly to God not holding anyone else as being guilty for sin but the one that does the sinning. Your stated notion that 'capital punishment' is the context is a flat out misrepresenation of Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I have no idea as to why God required what He required. Because His death is involved in the sacrifice for sin, in no wise makes your case that physical death is the penalty for sin. He suffered on a cross as well, yet does that prove suffering on the cross is the penalty for sin? I think not.

I realize you don't know! You will never know because you reject the very reason the Scriptures repeatedly give "for sin."

[/SIZE][/FONT]HP: Eternal death is but a consequence of spiritual death? Again, you are chasing rabbit trails in every direction but to no avail.

No, you are denying that "death" comphrehends the past (spiritual) and the present (dying physically) the future (eternal) as a penalty of sin. No one can deny that the second "death" is a penalty for sin and if you cannot deny that aspect you cannot deny any aspect of death is a penalty of sin because "death" is comprehensive of all three and all three are the consequential Penalty for sin.

For example, what other penalty can you find in Genesis 2:17 for eating the forbidden fruit but "dying that shalt die"????????

 

[Moriah]

We all must die because Adam sinned.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Those who overcome this world through faith in Jesus, Jesus will give the right to eat from the tree of life.

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Jesus appeared so that he might take away our sins. See 1 John 3:5.

Through Jesus’ death we are reconciled us to God. See Romans 5:10.

God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. See Romans 8:3.

An offering for the sins of His people. See Hebrews 10:5.

The LORD has made his life a sacrifice for our wrongdoings. See Isaiah 53:10.

It was the LORD’s will to crush him with suffering. See Isaiah 53:10.

He was made sin because the sins of His people were transferred to Jesus, and in like manner, the believer is made “the righteousness of God.” See 2 Corinthians 5:25.


Christ, who knew no sin of his own became sin for believers, so they, who have no righteousness of their own, are made the righteousness of God through Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 5:21.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24.

Through the sacrifice of Jesus, he gives to all those that come to him freedom from the guilt, power, and punishment of sin. See Hebrews 10:4; 1 Corinthians 15:56; See 2 Peter 2:9.

Jesus puts us into perfect holiness, joy, and fellowship with himself and the Father. See Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14.

“And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. See Hebrews 10:17.

God gives us this through Jesus Christ, “where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” See Hebrews 10:18.

Jesus bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. See Isaiah 53:12

Jesus Christ once for all has made us holy through the sacrifice of his body. Hebrews 10:10.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. See Colossians 1:19-21,

God sanctifies us by the truth; His word is truth. John 17:17.

Jesus sanctified himself, that he may truly sanctify us. John 17:19.

Jesus was made perfect through suffering. Hebrews 2:10.

Jesus is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. Hebrews 4:15.

We have cleansing by the washing with water through the word. Ephesians 2:26.

We are also to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Jesus conquered death when God raised him from the dead. 2 Timothy 1:10.

God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. John 3:16.

He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12.

All who reject Jesus will one day face God’s wrath. John 3:36

His words are life. John 6:63


Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Heavenly Pilgrim,

TrevorL, do you see any distinction between a consequence of sin and a penalty for sin? If physical death is a penalty for sin, and Christ paid for sin, why do believers still see physical death, and again, why have some not seen physical death? There is not one Scripture that states that physical death is the penalty for sin. It indeed could be in certain cases where God literally takes the life one as a direct result of their sin. We do have a few such examples of that happening in Scripture. In such cases I would say that physical death is indeed part of ones punishment for their sin, but again, the only stated penalty for sin in Scripture is eternal separation from God. Clearly Scripture indicates pyhsical depravity and death as a clear consequence of sin, but I see consequences of, and penalties for, as two distinct issues.

Again I refer you to Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19 and Romans 6:23 which clearly indicate that death is the penalty for sin. I do not believe that Christ died as a substitute, and he therefore did not pay for sin and death in the sense that you take it. For example we read that Christ suffered for us, and if this is taken in a substitutionary way why did Job suffer? Why did the Apostles and many other faithful suffer?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

This is such an astounding admission of Biblical ignorance that it is amazing one can even say such a thing!

You are denying the most fundamental truths of Scripture. New Testament writers based their whole doctrines of the human nature, sin, death and salvation upon the Old Testament scriptures. Old Testament Scriptures are quoted and properly interpreted and expanded by New Testament writers to give the definitive and comprehensive meaning of sin, death and regeneration.

Unless you accept and understand the far more comprehensive teaching of the apostles on the subject of death there is no hope you can even understand the fundamentals of salvation much less the gospel and especially the counter part of spiritual death which is regeneration. Regeneration is spiritual ("what is born of Spirit is spirit"). Regeneration is basically the reverse of spiritual death.

Epheians 2:1-10 is not "adding thoughts" but clear demonstration that mere physical death is nothing but the superficial manifestation of a far deeper problem caused by sin which is SPIRITUAL. Physical death merely makes visibly manifest a far worse death within man. The cause of the process of decay and corruption is SPIRITUAL death just as the conclusion of death is not merely physical but the "second" death which is eternal.

The Biblical meaning of death is separation. It is spiritual separation that brings on the physical consequenes (decay, corruption and separation of the material and immaterial aspects of human nature - Ecc. 12:7; 2 Cor. 5:7-9) and is causative to the spiritual problems and association with Satan as described in Ephesians 2:1-3.

Regeneration/quickening is SPIRITUAL and the direct counter to SPIRITUAL DEATH while glorification is the direct counter to PHYSICAL death.

What you need to do is study the New Testament teaching of Regeneration and what its characteristics are if you want to understand the true cause of physical death as regeneration is the SPIRITUAL counterpart to SPIRITUAL death.

I suggest that you partially ignore the simple teaching of Genesis 2:17 and 3:17-19. You then reinforce your partial rejection of the clear teaching of these foundation verses by your addition and interpretation of other passages such as Ephesians 2:1-10.


Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

For example we read that Christ suffered for us, and if this is taken in a substitutionary way why did Job suffer? Why did the Apostles and many other faithful suffer?

Jesus was a sin offering for us, a sacrifice. Jesus dying reconciles us to God. Jesus dying for us saves us from God’s wrath, and from the second death. Jesus was made perfect through suffering.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The cause of the process of decay and corruption is SPIRITUAL death just as the conclusion of death is not merely physical but the "second" death which is eternal.

HP: In a sense on could say that spiritual death was the cause of God imposing the process of physical degeneration upon the human race, but caution is in order. One could also say (though wrong in doing so) that 'God' was the cause of physical degeneration for God is the one who took away from man the Tree of Life.

Cause suggests blame. If man can blame his sin on being born spiritual dead, God is to be blamed being the Creator of all men, and not the sinner himself. If you desire to blame God for spiritual death, be my guest. I will not take that position, neither will I take the position that God is the cause of physical depravity although it could not have existed apart from God in a sense. The cause of both spiritual death and physical decay is sin, not God. Because something precedes the other is no sign that which precedes is the 'cause.' God precede everything but God is NOT the cause of sin. Because spiritual death precedes physical corruption, it does not make the case that the cause of corruption is spiritual death as you suggest. Sin is the cause, the will of man in willful disobedience to a known commandment of God, is the cause of both spiritual death and physical corruption. The cause of the process of decay and corruption is SIN, not spiritual death. No where does Scripture indicate man is born spiritually dead. To the contrary, God BLAMES man for his sinful state. If man was born spiritually dead, he might be pitied for such a malady, but never blamed and punished for being born into a state not of his own making. Sin is blameworthy, and again clear evidence that sin is the cause of spiritual death and physical decay and corruption of the human race.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This is much like the argument by some Calvinists that God is indeed the cause of sin, by remarks such as "God put it in the heart of Adam to sin." I see such remarks as the results as ignorance over the nature of sin and the cause of sin.

Much in the same vein of thought, I see physical decay and corruption ending in death, NOT as 'caused' by the lack of spiritual life, or by God Himself, but rather I would see the cause of physical corruption and death placed squarely on the shoulders of man who sinned. Sin is to be blamed. To say that physical suffering is or death is 'caused' by spiritual death, removes the guilt of sin from the will itself to an inherited trait, and changes willful disobedience of a known commandment of God (sin) to the mere absence of spiritual life, which only God could withhold. If God withholds spiritual life from man from birth, man had no other possibility that to be a sinner, and created by God as such. It shifts the blame from mans will to the way one is born, and in doing so destroys the heinousness of sin and makes a mockery of God punishing man for a malady He Himself is the cause of, in all subsequent to Adam that is.

The federal headship of Adam is NOT a Scriptural doctrine, and Scripture refutes any such notion. Sin is not a malady caused by the deprivation of spiritual life, or being born hunman, but rather is caused by willful disobedience on the part of every sinner when they sin.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Scripture never affirms in any way that all sin because of a deprivation of something they were not born with. Scripture never places the blame for sin anywhere than squarely upon the shoulders of the sinner himself. Scripture never once blames sin on the way one is born, but everywhere places the blame on mans will and the choices he makes.

This much I know. God blames every sinner for their own sins and clearly says He will not hold one accountable for the sins of another. Simply being a human and a physical descendant of Adam makes us subject to physical depravity and death, but that is not the cause of our sin nor the cause of spiritual death. Spiritual death is a direct result of ones sin our willful disobedience to known commandments of God.

Wesley had it right that nothing strictly speaking is sin apart from willful disobedience to a known commandment of God. Spiritually alive or spiritually dead, we all see physical corruption as a member of the human race. Physical depravity is not the source of spiritual corruption, sin is. Physical depravity is not the cause of sin, our selfish will is. One can be alive or dead spiritually in the corrupted flesh. Spiritual death is not caused from corrupted flesh, nor is physical depravity in us caused by lack of spiritual life.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: In a sense on could say that spiritual death was the cause of God imposing the process of physical degeneration upon the human race, but caution is in order.

If "dying thou shalt surely die" is not the PENALTY for sin in Genesis 2:17 then pray tell what other penalty is there mentioned with that prohibition? Genesis 3 did not occur until AFTER the fall. Did God given no warning of any kind of penalty for sin BEFORE the fall? If so, where, what text, what statement other than "dying thou shalt die"????

If there is no warning of any penalty for sin BEFORE the Fall, then according your own philosophical view of God's love and freedom, was God fair in his judgements in Genesis 3 if there were no WARNING of penal consequences prior to the Fall?