FYI on Hyper-Calvinism:

[12strings]

I though it might be helpful to point out that in order for someone to use the term "Hyper-Calvinism" in the manner it has been used historically, and in which it finds its accepted definition, the following should be considered:

1. A Hyper-Calvinists is not simply a "really serious calvinist", or even a "high-calvinist", or a Supralapsarian (one who beleives in double-predestination), or even one who believes that God is the Ultimate reason for all things that happen, even evil.

2. Hyper-Calvinism is marked primarily by the position that does not believe in the indiscriminate offer of the gospel to the elect and non-elect. This is expressed in the following articles from the confession of the Gospel Standard (Baptist) Churches of England:

Article 26—We reject the doctrine that man in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in, or turn to God.

Article 33—Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power and on the other hand, to deny the doctrine of special redemption.

3. Historically, The men who argued most fervently AGAINST hyper-calvinism have been calvinists. Baptists like Andrew Fuller, Adonirum Judson, & William Carey fervently opposed the hyper-calvinists in their day and were instrumental in early Baptist Missionary work. Later, Charles Spurgeon would debate and battle hyper-calvinism in his circles, with great spiritual fruit as a result of his indiscriminate Gospel invitation to all.

4. If you want to call someone a Hyper-calvinist with integrity, you must demonstrate that they Do not believe that we should preach the Gospel to all men and urge them to turn to Christ.

5. Tom Nettles has this to say about the issue:

“Many continue to fail, even in the most appropriate historical context, to give a clear picture of the aggressive evangelical Calvinism that characterized the leaders of the mission movement among English Baptists, American Baptists, and Southern Baptists. Their missionary involvement becomes abstracted from a theological framework and seems to be purely the outcome of guts and zeal or of love for Christ unconnected to any clear views of doctrinal truth. That hyper-Calvinism really is a different theological system from Calvinism is rarely discussed. Hyper-Calvinism is seen as very serious Calvinism or ‘Five-point Calvinism’ or the defense of ‘limited atonement’ or ‘supralapsarianism.’”

6. I will add that historically, Many Calvinists would classify Primitive Baptists as Hyper-Calvinists. They would likely deny this label, and possibly with good reason, as they do not necessarily oppose evangelism, but simply believe that such evangelism and preaching of the Gospel is unrelated to eternal salvation, but rather simply announces the Gospel to those who are already elect and would end up in heaven whether they ever heard the gospel or not.

 

[kyredneck]

Oh my, it's those horrible Primitive Baptists, again.

 

[glfredrick]

Funny how the reasoned post from 12 Strings has been taken to mean an attack on someone.

Is that not the way Primitive Baptists see the issue? I believe it was reported fairly, including your potential response.

 

[kyredneck]

Funny how the reasoned post from 12 Strings has been taken to mean an attack on someone.

Is that not the way Primitive Baptists see the issue? I believe it was reported fairly, including your potential response.

Because they refused to change when everyone else around them was succumbing to the great commission of the Church to populate heaven through missionary boards they are now castigated as 'hyper'.

How did folks ever make it to heaven before the invention of missions?

 

[glfredrick]

Because they refused to change when everyone else around them was succumbing to the great commission of the Church to populate heaven through missionary boards they are now castigated as 'hyper'.

How did folks ever make to heaven before the invention of missions?

God invented missions in the very earliest OT. He promised to bless "all the peoples of the world" over and again by covenant and by His promise.

You presume that missions is a relatively recent human development. That is where you go astray.

Jesus sent out missionaries and COMMANDED that we go to the uttermost parts of the earth with the gospel.

You have no leg to stand on.

For further study, google "missio dei"

 

[kyredneck]

....Jesus sent out missionaries and COMMANDED that we go to the uttermost parts of the earth with the gospel....

Point that one out to me.

You do know that that was accomplished before the completion of the NT, don't you? Surely you do. Right?

 

[glfredrick]

Point that one out to me.

You do know that that was accomplished before the completion of the NT, don't you? Surely you do. Right?

Did Jesus send out the 70, two-by-two to preach repentence?

Yes or no?

Did God send Jonah? Yes or no?

Did Jesus go into the Greek territory of Decapolis and there preach to the lost? Yes or no?

And, when Paul came to Jerusalem and the elders of the church conviened the Jerusalem Council, which OT covenant did they refer to for instruction to the Gentiles to whom Paul and company were on mission to reach?

 

[kyredneck]

Did Jesus send out the 70, two-by-two to preach repentence?

Yes or no?

Yes, with these instructions:

"Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Did God send Jonah? Yes or no?

Yes. But I don't see the significance of that. You think they became sheep through repenting, or did they repent because they were sheep?

Did Jesus go into the Greek territory of Decapolis and there preach to the lost? Yes or no?

Lost what? Sheep? Goats? You'll have to explain the significance of that one to me.

And, when Paul came to Jerusalem and the elders of the church conviened the Jerusalem Council, which OT covenant did they refer to for instruction to the Gentiles to whom Paul and company were on mission to reach?

And that supports the manmade invention to populate heaven through mission boards how?

 

[glfredrick]

Yes, with these instructions:

"Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



Yes. But I don't see the significance of that. You think they became sheep through repenting, or did they repent because they were sheep?



Lost what? Sheep? Goats? You'll have to explain the significance of that one to me.



And that supports the manmade invention to populate heaven through mission boards how?

Brother, you are trifling with the Word of God in the way you interpret these well-known Bible passages.

Let's assume, for a moment, that you are correct about your views on God's elect. COULD heaven be "populated" by any effort of man? Your answer would have to be NO. And yet, we find true worshiping communities when God's missionaries (as were Paul, Barnabas, Peter, John, -- the 12 -- and countelss others after Pentecost) went out to preach to the world so that the elect would hear the Word and with that the effectual call.

Do you disavow preaching to the world?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I consider myself a PB but I'm far from a hyper Calvinist. There are so many misconceptions of what Primitive Baptists are today that it is laughable just to read some of the commentary. Until you have done an exhaustive study of these folks, Id prefer that most keep silent. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[12strings]

My intention was not to ridicule Primitive Baptists, merely to give people some historical context in how the term "Hyper-Calvinist" has historically been used.
Primarily it was to correct some on this board who consider Calvinism & Hyper-Calvinism to be essentially the same.

I actually hoped the PB would see this and give us some helpful clarifications. Such as:

-Is it the Title "Hype-Calvinist" that you disagree with, while agreeing with the position that we are not to preach the Gospel to every man, elect and non-elect? ...Or is there some nuance that we who are outside of PB are not getting?

-Is it simply that you think the title "Hyper-calvinist" should be used, since it was invented as negative term to describe those with opposite views....or do you see a real error in "Hyper-Calvinism" that Primitive Baptists would disagree with?

 

[Forest]

God invented missions in the very earliest OT. He promised to bless "all the peoples of the world" over and again by covenant and by His promise.

You presume that missions is a relatively recent human development. That is where you go astray.

Jesus sent out missionaries and COMMANDED that we go to the uttermost parts of the earth with the gospel.

You have no leg to stand on.

For further study, google "missio dei"

The so called great commission was accomplished by the apostels in their day, Col 1:23, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

 

[glfredrick]

The so called great commission was accomplished by the apostels in their day, Col 1:23, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

Yeah, right...

I don't even have another response for that statement.

Will you also then throw out the rest of the Bible as well, for it too must already be accomplished in its day.

 

[Forest]

Brother, you are trifling with the Word of God in the way you interpret these well-known Bible passages.

Let's assume, for a moment, that you are correct about your views on God's elect. COULD heaven be "populated" by any effort of man? Your answer would have to be NO. And yet, we find true worshiping communities when God's missionaries (as were Paul, Barnabas, Peter, John, -- the 12 -- and countelss others after Pentecost) went out to preach to the world so that the elect would hear the Word and with that the effectual call.

Do you disavow preaching to the world?[/QUOTE The misinters who have been called by God to preach are instructed to "feed the flock" preach the good news of the gospel of Christ to those who have already been born of the Spirit. The good news is not how to get saved eternally, but is the good news that Christ has already secured their eternal salvation while he was on the cross and washed away all their sins, past, present and future. Paul ask the church of the Thessalonians to pray that he may be delivered from all men who did not have faith. God says if they have not the Spirit, they are none of his, Rom 8:9.

 

[Forest]

My intention was not to ridicule Primitive Baptists, merely to give people some historical context in how the term "Hyper-Calvinist" has historically been used.
Primarily it was to correct some on this board who consider Calvinism & Hyper-Calvinism to be essentially the same.

I actually hoped the PB would see this and give us some helpful clarifications. Such as:

-Is it the Title "Hype-Calvinist" that you disagree with, while agreeing with the position that we are not to preach the Gospel to every man, elect and non-elect? ...Or is there some nuance that we who are outside of PB are not getting?

-Is it simply that you think the title "Hyper-calvinist" should be used, since it was invented as negative term to describe those with opposite views....or do you see a real error in "Hyper-Calvinism" that Primitive Baptists would disagree with?

I don't know why people keep associating Calvin with the primitive baptist. The primitive baptist do not consult the writtings of John Calvin and do not believe some of the things that he teaches. Anyone who is truly searching for the truth should use only the inspired word of God and have no part in the interpretations of any man.

 

[Forest]

Yeah, right...

I don't even have another response for that statement.

Will you also then throw out the rest of the Bible as well, for it too must already be accomplished in its day.

Quote me scripture. How can we intelligently discuss the scriptures unless we give reference with scripture?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, right...

I don't even have another response for that statement.

Will you also then throw out the rest of the Bible as well, for it too must already be accomplished in its day.

Wait a moment Guy.....may I ask, do you seriously believe that bringing the gospel alone to someone who is without the help of the Holy Spirit will have any effect? I assure you it wont without the Holy Spirit.

Also note that a PB believes in preaching for the comfort and instruction of the Lord's people IE the elect (Isa. 40: 1-2, 9; Eph.4: 11-16).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God invented missions in the very earliest OT. He promised to bless "all the peoples of the world" over and again by covenant and by His promise.

You presume that missions is a relatively recent human development. That is where you go astray.

Jesus sent out missionaries and COMMANDED that we go to the uttermost parts of the earth with the gospel.

You have no leg to stand on.

For further study, google "missio dei"

You should try New Jersey some day :laugh:

 

[12strings]

I don't know why people keep associating Calvin with the primitive baptist. The primitive baptist do not consult the writtings of John Calvin and do not believe some of the things that he teaches. Anyone who is truly searching for the truth should use only the inspired word of God and have no part in the interpretations of any man.

So are you saying we should not listen to anything you tell us either? You yourself said that preaching edifies the saints. would that not be one man giving his interpretations to another?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So are you saying we should not listen to anything you tell us either? You yourself said that preaching edifies the saints. would that not be one man giving his interpretations to another?

Forest....Im sure you have studied others including Calvinists like Arthur Pink &/ or perhaps Charles Spurgeon....but i take you point to mean that you dont Identify with John Calvin. Many great Calvinists dont either. No Baptist could identify with Infant Baptism.