Heheh, I'd say the preaching at Pentecost was 'literally' a gospel bomb.
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- Thread starter 12strings
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Heheh, I'd say the preaching at Pentecost was 'literally' a gospel bomb.
This is the usual passage that is quoted. And I good passage it is too. But several other good passages are all too often ignored. I will come back to 2 Tim. 3, and to Steve's odd claim concerning it, but for now I would like to draw attention to the Old Testament. We have three "last day passages" (let alone the roughly ten passages that use a slightly different term):
And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. - Gen. 49:1
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. - Isa. 2:2
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. - Micah 4:1
The reason why my emphasis on the Jewish aspect of the last days seems not serious to Steve is that he apparently does not take the Old Testament seriously either. The Old Testament witnesses of the last days just as surely as does the New. These verses - and the passages annexed to them - speak of both judgment on the Jewish Kingdom (the unbelieving majority) and of elevation of the Zion of God (redeemed Jews and Gentiles).
Isaiah says "all nations shall flow into it".
Micah says "people shall flow unto it".
This is Mount Zion, Matthew's "City on a hill" which "cannot be hid". But before this mountain receives its elevation all other mountains, including old Zion, were to have been leveled (per John Baptizer's prophecy).
People who scoff at the Jewish element of these last days passages just show to me their negligence of the Old Testament.
This is all I have time for tonight.
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I dont know Steve.....do these people ask you to come & convert them? Id venture to wager that if these Aborigines are anything like our American Indigenous People, the answer would be a resounding "No" followed up with, stay the heck away from us & havent you done enough to destroy us & our way of life & now you want to cram your god down our necks.
Perhaps thats your answer to why the Aussie missionaries havent been successful & now there calling in the Sassenagh who has always abhorred a vacuum. Go ask the Catholics in Ireland, the Scots, the Welsh, India, China etc. conquest is your real goal & if these natives wanted it, it would already be there.
Hmm! Did Paul ask himself, do you think, "I wonder whether these Corinthians realy want me to bring the Gospel to them. Perhaps I'll just stay in Tarsus." I think not!
Go and read the biography of David Brainerd and William Carey. Carey laboured in India for nine years before God gave him his first convert, but today there are maybe 60 million Christians in India and the numbers are growing like wildfire.
I think maybe you really need to read some good Christian biography, and also hear the word of God. 'For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!" (Romans 10:11-16).
The gospel is to be preached all over the world and God calls the men He wants to preach it.
Steve
This gave me a real belly-laugh. Over on the Puritan Board I used to get accused of being the exact opposite. If I were either High Church or a Traditionalist I would not be a Baptist.
Evidence please! I take the O.T. extremely seriously and preach on it regularly.
Isaiah says "all nations shall flow into it".
Micah says "people shall flow unto it".
This is Mount Zion, Matthew's "City on a hill" which "cannot be hid". But before this mountain receives its elevation all other mountains, including old Zion, were to have been levelled (per John Baptizer's prophecy).[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. The O.T. is full of prophesies concerning the salvation of the Gentiles, starting with Gen 12:3. That the Bible predicts the destruction of Jerusalem (and Babylon, and Tyre) is also true. However, neither of these things has any bearing on whether the Lord Jesus returned invisibly in AD 70, whether He is coming again, and whether the Great Commission has already been fulfilled or not.
The Last Days broke in upon the world with the coming of our Lord (Mark 1:15). They will continue until He returns and after that there will not be any other days (Rev 21:23, 25). The clue is in the name- 'Last days.' After that is 'The Age to come.' This is entirely in line with your Isaiah and Micah quotes.
Steve Owen says:
"The gospel is to be preached all over the world and God calls the men He wants to preach it"
If God called them, Im sure they would be doing great..... as it stands now however...:smilewinkgrin:
Perhaps its not God calling at all.
"The gospel is to be preached all over the world and God calls the men He wants to preach it"
If God called them, Im sure they would be doing great..... as it stands now however...:smilewinkgrin:
Perhaps its not God calling at all.
Guess Tommy has never been to an Episcopal or Catholic high church. Tom, I assure you that youd leave your lunch on the curb & youd have a nose bleed after being with those characters. No, Ole Steve there is what you call a Reformed Baptist....very plain & very direct.... to use their expression, "They are straight away" & they dont take any crap.
Steve Owen says:
"The gospel is to be preached all over the world and God calls the men He wants to preach it"
If God called them, Im sure they would be doing great..... as it stands now however...:smilewinkgrin:
Perhaps its not God calling at all.
God called Isaiah to preach. How many converts did he get?
Against my better judgment after that "crap" aside, I will still tell you what was in "Tommy's" head when he wrote what he did.
I was using partial irony. On this board irony seems to backfire more often than hit the mark. It is often, well, ironic that those who are most apt to miss it when coming their way are the very ones who use it a lot themselves.
Many times Steve has made ironic comments about my belief, positing then-in-that-case fallacies that arise, not from my Preterism, but from his unthinking caricature of my Preterism.
And, yes Steve, I know that you do not perceive yourself as high church or traditionalist. Yet in a very real sense you are traditionalist. When it comes to opposing views from which you cannot find recourse in the Bible (as in Preterism) you resort to tradition. I called you "high church" and "traditionalist" in order to, hopefully, make you see the great gulf between your profession (and your monicker!) - and the way you treat my position.
You are a plausible Biblicist in many areas, I have no doubt. But when it comes to something like Preterism you resort to your beloved creeds as a magisterial two-by-four.
You actually, in this area, put tradition over God's word.
Consider these words of yours. The (underlining is mine, showing where you reference the words of men. I put your actual references to the Bible in red):
--------------------------------------------
"Where is the basis of our Christian unity or brotherhood? We can't even recite the Apostles' Creed together. 'From thence He shall come to judge both the living and the dead.' You believe in a Christ who is never coming back. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in that Christ.
You have set yourself apart from your 'Christian friends and brothers' by espousing a doctrine that flies in the face of all Christian creeds and confessions right from the start, including the one espoused by the Chinese house churches."
---------------------------------------------
There you see your adherence and magisterial use of the words of men underlined.
And the words in red? Hmm. There aren't any.
Ironic.
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I find it ironic Tommy old man that the Aborigine in the Outback, knowing full well what Christianity is all about, have rejected it only to have English missionaries now convinced that they MUST now go in there & cram it down their necks. If this is the concept of missionary work.....to force Christianity, then .....
Any time you have missionaries acting like imperialistic europeans, you are certainly going to get push-back. That is not the approach to take unless you just want push-back for spite & I dont think thats how you want to posture Christianity.
Old Union Brother
New Member
One question for all you folks that are bashing Old School Baptist or Primative Baptists. Have you ever visited a PB or Old School Baptist Church? I would guess that most of you haven't. Don't be afraid, you might actually find something there that you would like. I can tell you what you will find, A spirit filled loving group of people that worship in a simple style.
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Mt 12:7
OUB, the vitriol comes from those who don't know what it means.
He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8
I don't get your point. I get your rudeness, but I don't get your point. How is this a response to what I wrote?
On second thought, forget it. When a person resorts to being caustic it shows that he has given up on intelligent rebuttal.
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Im glad you do & dont....concerning rudeness though, you have no idea:smilewinkgrin:....besides, who ever said its a response to your post? Steve is the guy I am addressing.....your just periphery Tommy.
Brothers (KYRED & OUB)...do you seriously think the vitriol will subside or that any here have any interest in visiting your churches....NO, but know this.....it's your turn in the barrel. :tonofbricks:Sorry to say.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Steve, it seems the phrase "High Church" can mean something quite different to the way we use it in the UK. Last year, on the thread: "Is this a new worship war starting?" someone wrote (my emphasis):
I am very old fashioned. I prefer high church- Isaac Watts with big orchestra and booming choir type music.
It's mind-boggling to try to think of either Isaac Watts or yourself as "high church" in the British-English sense! :laugh:
Are you referring to the Anglican, Saeson churches? If so then no, most of the Bible Belt would not have a clue. Now if your referencing to hard core orthodox theology churches :smilewinkgrin:
Old Union Brother
New Member
No I do not think the vitrol will subside. Most people are prone to attack that which is different or that which they do not understand. :BangHead:
I don't doubt that if we visited many primitive Baptist churches, we would find a loving group of people worshiping God simply...however, I think you may be dismissing too quickly the very real theological differences at play here.
Primarily, whether or not hearing and believing the Gospel is God's ordained means to eternally save his elect. PB Say no, Other Baptists say yes.
You must understand that especially for those whose first contact with PB is on this board, the things they are saying fly in the face of what we believe to be very central to the Christian faith: Believe the Gospel, Share the Gospel.
I can't speak for others, but I myself have not heard a convincing argument for the idea that faith in the gospel is unrelated to eternal salvation. There are too many verses that seem to relate the two together. Sure there are verses speaking of man's need for God's supernatural regeneration, but it also seems that the means God uses in scripture is hearing and responding to the gospel in faith (Rom. 3, for example).
Until any of us Non-PB's are convinced on that issue, There will be continued debate...hopefully civil. :thumbsup: