Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?

[asterisktom]

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?​

Before you answer, consider this:

God is spirit. Those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4. We know that God is essentially unchangeable, Mal. 3:6; Psa. 102:27; Heb. 1:12.

There was a time when, in order to save us - to save those whom the Father gave, to be more precise - the Son had to take upon Himself our physical nature, Heb. 2:13-15. It was necessary for Him, in the course of "fulfilling all righteousness", to obey perfectly and suffer accordingly in order to procure our salvation. This is why He also had to be resurrected physically. He showed and demonstrated His physical body to Thomas and others.

But there was no need for Him to return physically. He returned in AD 70 in the same essence as He always was, as a King "eternal, immortal, invisible". The hymn is also to the point:

"Immortal, invisible, God only wise,In light inaccessible hid from our eyes"

For those who say that Christ is also, at this point in time and from this time onward, existing in a physical body, I would ask this question: Did He have this same body also before the Incarnation?

Yes, there are Christophanies. But other than that?
How about before recorded history?
How about when there was only Trinity, self-communicating, self-loving? Was One of the Three physical then?

I don't think anyone would say this. I hope not. But if they don't affirm this then they have another problem. In a very real and fundamental way God - the unchangeable God - has changed. Drastically.

But I don't believe that about Christ. Do you?

 

[Amy.G]

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?​

Before you answer, consider this:

God is spirit. Those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4. We know that God is essentially unchangeable, Mal. 3:6; Psa. 102:27; Heb. 1:12.

For those who say that Christ is also, at this point in time and from this time onward, existing in a physical body, I would ask this question: Did He have this same body also before the Incarnation?

Yes, there are Christophanies. But other than that?
How about before recorded history?
How about when there was only Trinity, self-communicating, self-loving? Was One of the Three physical then?

I don't think anyone would say this. I hope not. But if they don't affirm this then they have another problem. In a very real and fundamental way God - the unchangeable God - has changed. Drastically.

But I don't believe that about Christ. Do you?

Christ did not return in 70 AD, but as for the question....

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Revelation 1:13-17 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

These two verses describe Jesus as He was/is in heaven. His earthly body was human.

 

[webdog]

I believe the body Jesus has now is the same spiritual body He had prior to His incarnation (with added holes in his hands and feet to show His defeat over sin, death and the grave). The problem is when we think spiritual must be opposite of physical. In Christ's spiritual body He walked, ate and was touched.

 

[12strings]

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?​

Before you answer, consider this:

God is spirit. Those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4. We know that God is essentially unchangeable, Mal. 3:6; Psa. 102:27; Heb. 1:12.

There was a time when, in order to save us - to save those whom the Father gave, to be more precise - the Son had to take upon Himself our physical nature, Heb. 2:13-15. It was necessary for Him, in the course of "fulfilling all righteousness", to obey perfectly and suffer accordingly in order to procure our salvation. This is why He also had to be resurrected physically. He showed and demonstrated His physical body to Thomas and others.

But there was no need for Him to return physically. He returned in AD 70 in the same essence as He always was, as a King "eternal, immortal, invisible". The hymn is also to the point:

"Immortal, invisible, God only wise,In light inaccessible hid from our eyes"

For those who say that Christ is also, at this point in time and from this time onward, existing in a physical body, I would ask this question: Did He have this same body also before the Incarnation?

Yes, there are Christophanies. But other than that?
How about before recorded history?
How about when there was only Trinity, self-communicating, self-loving? Was One of the Three physical then?

I don't think anyone would say this. I hope not. But if they don't affirm this then they have another problem. In a very real and fundamental way God - the unchangeable God - has changed. Drastically.

But I don't believe that about Christ. Do you?

Quite simply: YES.

I realize it is one of the great mysteries of the universe to say that the Eternal unchangeable God has "changed," but I would agree with Grudem's statement that We can only say God is unchangeable in the ways that the Bible says he is unchangeable.

If you take unchangeable to the extreem, you would have to say the incarnation itself is impossible...since even that was a temporary change. So even by your logic, We would have to say: God never changes PERMENENTLY, but can change TEMPORARILY.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

 

[12strings]

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

Except for that time when he became a human being, and when he took on the name "Jesus".

I just don't think we can take these verses and apply them to every aspect of Jesus, since they obviously would not make sense that way.

 

[HankD]

Except for that time when he became a human being, and when he took on the name "Jesus".

I just don't think we can take these verses and apply them to every aspect of Jesus, since they obviously would not make sense that way.

I agree 12strings.

When the Word became flesh His essential attributes of deity did not change.

True, they were veiled and for a little while He laid aside many of His perogatives of deity in order to die for humankind.

NAS Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.​

HankD​

 

[HankD]

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?​

Before you answer, consider this:

God is spirit. Those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4. We know that God is essentially unchangeable, Mal. 3:6; Psa. 102:27; Heb. 1:12.

There was a time when, in order to save us - to save those whom the Father gave, to be more precise - the Son had to take upon Himself our physical nature, Heb. 2:13-15. It was necessary for Him, in the course of "fulfilling all righteousness", to obey perfectly and suffer accordingly in order to procure our salvation. This is why He also had to be resurrected physically. He showed and demonstrated His physical body to Thomas and others.

But there was no need for Him to return physically. He returned in AD 70 in the same essence as He always was, as a King "eternal, immortal, invisible". The hymn is also to the point:

"Immortal, invisible, God only wise,In light inaccessible hid from our eyes"

For those who say that Christ is also, at this point in time and from this time onward, existing in a physical body, I would ask this question: Did He have this same body also before the Incarnation?

Yes, there are Christophanies. But other than that?
How about before recorded history?
How about when there was only Trinity, self-communicating, self-loving? Was One of the Three physical then?

I don't think anyone would say this. I hope not. But if they don't affirm this then they have another problem. In a very real and fundamental way God - the unchangeable God - has changed. Drastically.

But I don't believe that about Christ. Do you?

That the Word became flesh - Yes I believe this.

But no, the Incarnation did not change the eternal attributes of the Logos. The Logos Himself did not change.

He IS a Spirit, He HAS a body.

His essential attributes of deity are unchanged before and after the incarnation.

HankD

 

[convicted1]

The reason why Jesus came in a physical body, was so that He could be nailed to the cross. You can't crucify a Spirit. When He went back to the Father, He took on the form of His Spiritual form. God is Spirit, Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is Spriit in heaven now. At least this is how I see it.

 

[asterisktom]

The reason why Jesus came in a physical body, was so that He could be nailed to the cross. You can't crucify a Spirit. When He went back to the Father, He took on the form of His Spiritual form. God is Spirit, Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is Spriit in heaven now. At least this is how I see it.

Agreed. I don't see how Scripture teaches any differently.

 

[webdog]

Agreed. I don't see how Scripture teaches any differently.

Actually it does. Scrippture is quite clear a spiritual body is physical. If not the resurrection is moot.

 

[asterisktom]

Actually it does. Scrippture is quite clear a spiritual body is physical. If not the resurrection is moot.

Please show me from Scripture what you assert in your middle sentence.

 

[webdog]

Please show me from Scripture what you assert in your middle sentence.

All Scripture dealing with Christ post resurrection and the ones telling us will be like His.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please show me from Scripture what you assert in your middle sentence.

Tom,

I have always believed this verse teaches it:

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Glorius body=spiritual body

and here:

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

this seems to imply the spiritual body has a material form to hold the spirit...like paul says in 2 cor 5:
2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

[percho]

I am not real sure the soul can, be, except it has a body.


For we (Souls that are in Christ) know that if our earthly house of tabernacle (Our body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (Another habitation for the soul)

that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2C5:4
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. 1C15:53

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Is not the following the firstborn image that is being spoken of?
who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

The image of the resurrected Jesus the Christ. Then and then only will he be the firstborn of many. (So born.)

 

[convicted1]

I am not real sure the soul can, be, except it has a body.


For we (Souls that are in Christ) know that if our earthly house of tabernacle (Our body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (Another habitation for the soul)

that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2C5:4
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. 1C15:53

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Is not the following the firstborn image that is being spoken of?
who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

The image of the resurrected Jesus the Christ. Then and then only will he be the firstborn of many. (So born.)

Remember, when we die, our soul goes back to God, and our physical body molders back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). When Jesus returns in the Cloud, the souls of those who died in the Lord, Jesus will bring with Him. The graves will burst open, and our bodies will be resurrected with a body like Jesus', ascend to the Cloud, and reunite with that soul. Those who are alive in Him at this time, their physical body is changed and the spiritual body and soul will go to meet the Lord in the air in the Cloud.

 

[percho]

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?

for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NKJV
for IN her BEING-generatED OUT OF-spirit IS HOLY Interlinear Sctipture4all

Did that in bold actually take place?

 

[HankD]

If Jesus Christ is now a Spirit only, what happened to the body He was crucified in?

HankD

 

[percho]

Remember, when we die, our soul goes back to God, and our physical body molders back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). When Jesus returns in the Cloud, the souls of those who died in the Lord, Jesus will bring with Him. The graves will burst open, and our bodies will be resurrected with a body like Jesus', ascend to the Cloud, and reunite with that soul. Those who are alive in Him at this time, their physical body is changed and the spiritual body and soul will go to meet the Lord in the air in the Cloud.

God will bring with Jesus those who sleep in Jesus by the "even so".

Let's see we are heirs (not inheritors) of God and joint heirs with Christ. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; Now Christ is the firstborn from the dead and when we are conformed to his image he will then be, the firstborn of many brethren.

Gal3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 18 For if the inheritance of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham (and his one seed Christ) by promise. 19 Wherefore then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That witch is born of the flesh is flesh. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

"Even so" as Jesus died and rose again, God will being with Jesus into the kingdom of God, those that sleep in Jesus by resurrection from the dead.

Then we will be joint inheritors of the kingdom of God, inheritors of eternal life and inheritors of a new name.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,

I have always believed this verse teaches it:
--------------------
Quote:
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Glorius body=spiritual body

and here:
Quote:
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
------------------

this seems to imply the spiritual body has a material form to hold the spirit

[other part snipped for now]

I snipped it here, Iconoclast, because I want to focus on this one passage that you brought up. I believe that it is actually evidence for my table, not yours. (By the way, I really appreciate the fact that you actually brought out verses for us to base our discussion on.)

A quick summary of the points raised here by Paul:

From 20 - 21
Our manner of life is heaven-based. It is from heaven that we look for, not only our Savior, but also our bodies. These will be like Him (Christlike).

Now there is more than this - and Paul does not here use the term "Christlike". However, I see that term as partially-synonymous with being like Him.

I need to break this off at this point because I now have to use this computer for something else and, if it multitasks, will likely freeze. The school gave us a 95 model!

But I do intend to get back to this, hopefully in half an hour.