Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?

[percho]

Iconoclast

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the living soul was the type of him to come Jesus born of Mary, a living soul. What is man? Adam made a little lower than the angels. We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels.

1 Cor. 15 is about the resurrection of dead people.

V35 But some will say, How are the dead (people) raised up? and with what body do they (the dead people) come?

I do not think that verse reads, But some will say, How are the dead bodies raised up? And with what body do the dead bodies come. They, were dead people who had been living souls.

Therefore is this not a post resurrection statement concerning Jesus the Christ? From Greek interlinear Scripture4all,org V45 THE LAST ADAM INTO spirit makING-LIVE: KJV the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

The next verse speaking of Jesus for until even now he alone has gone through this process.

V46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (After the resurrection) that which is spiritual.

Jesus I believe put the same thought this way.

But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates (death) of Hades (The state of the dead) shall not prevail against it. (Her).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the (quickened spirit) image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

O Death where thy sting? O Hades where thy victory?

 

[Iconoclast]

Percho,

1 Cor. 15 is about the resurrection of dead people.

Yes...I was trying to focus here:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
------------------

 

[Iconoclast]

[other part snipped for now]

I snipped it here, Iconoclast, because I want to focus on this one passage that you brought up. I believe that it is actually evidence for my table, not yours. (By the way, I really appreciate the fact that you actually brought out verses for us to base our discussion on.)

A quick summary of the points raised here by Paul:

From 20 - 21
Our manner of life is heaven-based. It is from heaven that we look for, not only our Savior, but also our bodies. These will be like Him (Christlike).

Now there is more than this - and Paul does not here use the term "Christlike". However, I see that term as partially-synonymous with being like Him.

I need to break this off at this point because I now have to use this computer for something else and, if it multitasks, will likely freeze. The school gave us a 95 model!

But I do intend to get back to this, hopefully in half an hour.

Okay..sounds good....Tom I understand that as Image-bearers we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus...in our Spirit...and yet we also have the verse in 1 thess 5
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another verse for you to address would be john in revelation seeing the souls of those who have been put to death...do you think they will not be clothed upon with a glorified body??/
also lk 16 parobolic, or not describes body parts...let me know your thoughts on it:thumbs: Hope all is well with you brother :wavey:

 

[asterisktom]

But I do intend to get back to this, hopefully in half an hour.

Hmm. Once again life intervenes. OK, here is a continuation of sorts (This is modified from a post elsewhere, though same topic):

I brought up Christlikeness because that is an essential topic of 1 Corinthians 15. I suppose it is obvious to say that a Christian enjoys two stages of it. God's Spirit working in us produces a certain degree of it, but after this life we will have much more of it.

In the chapter we have a series of contrasts between the new life and the old, the things we will become contrasted to those things we are being saved from. Those good qualities of the new creature (v. 42-44) are: incorruption, glory, power, spiritual. Then we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam "became a living being". Christ, "a life-giving Spirit." KJV unhelpfully provides "became", which is not at all the point. Christ did not become a live-giving Spirit. He was that from eternity past. The KJV translator, sensing a stylistic inconsistency (perhaps?) added the second word.

Then we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two persons. (Skipping v. 46 for this post):

"The first man is of the earth ( ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven.

Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall [or "let us"] bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Now here is the application as I see it:

We shall be like Christ.
What is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit.

We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

 

[asterisktom]

Okay..sounds good....Tom I understand that as Image-bearers we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus...in our Spirit...and yet we also have the verse in 1 thess 5
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another verse for you to address would be john in revelation seeing the souls of those who have been put to death...do you think they will not be clothed upon with a glorified body??/
also lk 16 parobolic, or not describes body parts...let me know your thoughts on it:thumbs: Hope all is well with you brother :wavey:

We are doing fine. Thanks!

I feel right now like the Amish man who said, "The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get." This post of yours will have to wait till later.

 

[percho]

Hmm. Once again life intervenes. OK, here is a continuation of sorts (This is modified from a post elsewhere, though same topic):

I brought up Christlikeness because that is an essential topic of 1 Corinthians 15. I suppose it is obvious to say that a Christian enjoys two stages of it. God's Spirit working in us produces a certain degree of it, but after this life we will have much more of it.

In the chapter we have a series of contrasts between the new life and the old, the things we will become contrasted to those things we are being saved from. Those good qualities of the new creature (v. 42-44) are: incorruption, glory, power, spiritual. Then we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam "became a living being". Christ, "a life-giving Spirit." KJV unhelpfully provides "became", which is not at all the point. Christ did not become a live-giving Spirit. He was that from eternity past. The KJV translator, sensing a stylistic inconsistency (perhaps?) added the second word.

Then we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two persons. (Skipping v. 46 for this post):

"The first man is of the earth ( ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven.

Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall [or "let us"] bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Now here is the application as I see it:

We shall be like Christ.
What is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit.

We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

I assume you disagree with this I posted?
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the living soul was the type of him to come Jesus born of Mary, a living soul. What is man? Adam made a little lower than the angels. We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels.

You skip V46 but does not V46 magnify V45 and then V's47-49 are commentary on V46

Then verse 50 clarifies whether dead or alive we need to be changed from flesh and blood substance to spirit substance.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Is my question in post 17 relative?

Someone needs to explain to me why the resurrection from the dead for us is important and why the resurrection from the dead was important in the case of Jesus the Christ.

 

[asterisktom]

I assume you disagree with this I posted?
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the living soul was the type of him to come Jesus born of Mary, a living soul. What is man? Adam made a little lower than the angels. We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels.

You skip V46 but does not V46 magnify V45 and then V's47-49 are commentary on V46

Then verse 50 clarifies whether dead or alive we need to be changed from flesh and blood substance to spirit substance.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Is my question in post 17 relative?

Someone needs to explain to me why the resurrection from the dead for us is important and why the resurrection from the dead was important in the case of Jesus the Christ.

I didn't so much disagree with your earlier post as misunderstand. Or, rather, I didn't know what to make of it. It seemed a little to short for me to latch on to your meaning.

But now that you clarified here I would say, yes, I disagree.

Are you saying that since Christ was generated from the Holy Spirit into flesh, the Incarnation, that this is our proof that we also, as part of being like Him, will have flesh too - spiritual and perfect, but physical as well?

Is that what you are saying?

If it is, then I would repeat that Paul in 1 Cor. 15 is very careful to say just how we are going to be like Christ.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

There is a contrast here, both built upon origins. We were like Adam was from his origin, in his being "made of dust". (This is our physical nature).
We will be like Christ was from His origin, in His being "from heaven" (This is His spiritual nature - before the Incarnation).

Paul does not say "We will be like Christ in His Incarnation". He goes back further in time, back to the time when most Christians concede that He did not have a physical nature.

And that is the Christ we will be like - as soon as we are done with this parenthetical interim life in the flesh. We will have a spiritual body, "like into His glorious body".

 

[kyredneck]

....We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine. All His redeemed born from above who recieve Him are given the ability to set with Him in the heavenlies, here, now.

for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

....if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:10,11

and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: Eph 2:6

 

[percho]

I didn't so much disagree with your earlier post as misunderstand. Or, rather, I didn't know what to make of it. It seemed a little to short for me to latch on to your meaning.

But now that you clarified here I would say, yes, I disagree.

Are you saying that since Christ was generated from the Holy Spirit into flesh, the Incarnation, that this is our proof that we also, as part of being like Him, will have flesh too - spiritual and perfect, but physical as well?

Is that what you are saying?

If it is, then I would repeat that Paul in 1 Cor. 15 is very careful to say just how we are going to be like Christ.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

There is a contrast here, both built upon origins. We were like Adam was from his origin, in his being "made of dust". (This is our physical nature).
We will be like Christ was from His origin, in His being "from heaven" (This is His spiritual nature - before the Incarnation).

Paul does not say "We will be like Christ in His Incarnation". He goes back further in time, back to the time when most Christians concede that He did not have a physical nature.

And that is the Christ we will be like - as soon as we are done with this parenthetical interim life in the flesh. We will have a spiritual body, "like into His glorious body".

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Is there anything in the context of where this passage comes from to assign any meaning to it other that what it would have meant on the day it was written? That being Jesus Christ the same yesterday 3/21 today 3/22 and he will be same hereafter. I ask that in this context.

Is there something different about about the Word who let's say spoke the ten commandments at Mt. Sinai and Jesus in heaven today. Help me from a Trinitarian concept. Is the little man child who grew into a man and died at about the age of 33 years and was resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven there in a differently than before.

Will we be resurrected in the image of the resurrected man child Jesus or will we be resurrected in the image of the Word prior to the incarnation?

 

[asterisktom]

Someone needs to explain to me why the resurrection from the dead for us is important and why the resurrection from the dead was important in the case of Jesus the Christ.

They are actually two separate things, at least in several points. The purpose for Christ's resurrection is severalfold: A demonstration of His acceptance with the Father, including an acceptance of His saving mission on our behalf. Necessary to that mission would be His having overcome as a Man all those enemies that had, up until then, doomed us. This is the reason both for His Incarnation and His physical resurrection.

The redeemed do not have the same necessities laid upon them that their Redeemer did. He had to "fulfill all righteousness", undoing the disastrous effects of Adam's fall.

But Christ has no necessity now in continuing on in the flesh, which is itself a limitation when compared to His perfect and eternal glory He had before the Incarnation.

Flesh - or physical existence, however you would term it - brings with it certain limitations that are contrary to what we know of God: Omnipresence being just one of them. For Christ to have a physical body - think about it - would require Him to be certain places, but not other places.

God is One. I assume we all believe that God is still one. This, too, would be an eternal rift in the divine unity to have one being physical/spiritual and the other Persons "merely" spiritual.

 

[asterisktom]

Will we be resurrected in the image of the resurrected man child Jesus or will we be resurrected in the image of the Word prior to the incarnation?

That is one of the main points that I find in 1 Cor. 15, that we will be resurrected in the image of the "Lord from heaven", not according to the parenthetical pattern of the incarnational Christ.

 

[asterisktom]

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine. All His redeemed born from above who recieve Him are given the ability to set with Him in the heavenlies, here, now.

for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

....if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:10,11

and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: Eph 2:6

Very true, kyredneck. It is very encouraging to think of this. We have come into something really wonderful, undeserving as we are.

 

[percho]

They are actually two separate things, at least in several points. The purpose for Christ's resurrection is severalfold: A demonstration of His acceptance with the Father, including an acceptance of His saving mission on our behalf. Necessary to that mission would be His having overcome as a Man all those enemies that had, up until then, doomed us. This is the reason both for His Incarnation and His physical resurrection.

The redeemed do not have the same necessities laid upon them that their Redeemer did. He had to "fulfill all righteousness", undoing the disastrous effects of Adam's fall.

But Christ has no necessity now in continuing on in the flesh, which is itself a limitation when compared to His perfect and eternal glory He had before the Incarnation.

Flesh - or physical existence, however you would term it - brings with it certain limitations that are contrary to what we know of God: Omnipresence being just one of them. For Christ to have a physical body - think about it - would require Him to be certain places, but not other places.

God is One. I assume we all believe that God is still one. This, too, would be an eternal rift in the divine unity to have one being physical/spiritual and the other Persons "merely" spiritual.

Christ: Physical and Spiritual through Eternity?

for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NKJV
for IN her BEING-generatED OUT OF-spirit IS HOLY Interlinear Sctipture4all
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Did that in bold actually take place?

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

I assume it was Jesus the Christ who was born of Mary that was the heir of God?

I would also assume he being an heir meant he was to receive something by inheritance?

I believe we are told in Gal. 3:18 that the inheritance, that he was the heir of, comes by promise and not by the law. In verse 16 we learn the promises were made to Abraham and his seed singular Christ, Jesus I assume. We learn from Hebrews 11:13 Abraham died not having received the promises made to him and his one seed Christ, and this written in the context of up to the time of the writing of Hebrews he, Abraham still had not received the promises, this being some time after the resurrection of Christ and the led captivity captive stuff; and I would add, I believe unto this day Abraham has not received the promises.

Yet we have to, through Christ, become the seed of Abraham to be heirs according to the promise. See verse 29.

Now Jesus brought forth from Mary was the seed of Abraham to whom the promise was made.

You do not promise something which is already possessed by the one to whom the promise is made. What was Jesus to inherit by promise that we are joint heirs of , meaning we have not yet inherited, which Abraham will also inherit?

What promise did God make before time began?

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Why was this promise made? Was it not made for the seed of Abraham, the Christ because of this decree? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world also before time began.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Did Jesus the seed of Abraham receive the promise of eternal life when God the Father raised him from the dead? Therefore by resurrection? Will we and Abraham inherit that same promise when we, like Jesus are resurrected from the dead?

That is why I believe the resurrection of Jesus was important and why I believe our resurrection is important.

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Is the resurrected Jesus the Christ, the firstborn from the dead, a new creation of man?
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: