sorry, but you are portraying a God that can't get what he wants. You have a God that wanted a perfect world but man overpowered and sinned anyway. I agree that God allows people to sin as the first part of your analogy showed, but you error comes at the end to say that people sinning wasn't part of God's plan. Jesus is not an afterthought. I understand your difficulty with it. It's hard. It's called the problem of evil. We just don't understand it all, but we can't ignore it. The Bible clearly states that God uses sin to accomplish his will.
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Did God will for man to sin?
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
sorry, but you are portraying a God that can't get what he wants. You have a God that wanted a perfect world but man overpowered and sinned anyway. I agree that God allows people to sin as the first part of your analogy showed, but you error comes at the end to say that people sinning wasn't part of God's plan. Jesus is not an afterthought. I understand your difficulty with it. It's hard. It's called the problem of evil. We just don't understand it all, but we can't ignore it. The Bible clearly states that God uses sin to accomplish his will.
God doesn't like sin at all. He hates sin. He uses sin for his purposes. (Genesis 50:20). God could have stopped sin, but has a bigger purpose for allowing it.
Very true God hates sin but HE doesn't stop anyone from sinning. A lot of folks in this world try to stop people from sinning but they just can't stop them why because God gave man free will volition to make choices.
God doesn't like sin at all. He hates sin. He uses sin for his purposes. (Genesis 50:20). God could have stopped sin, but has a bigger purpose for allowing it.
That portion of your statement I highlighted in red is where I believe Reformed/Calvinist theology goes off the tracks. In fact, God cannot stop sin. Jesus said that offenses "must needs be". They cannot be prevented, even by God.
Reformed/Calvinist theology overemphasizes the sovereignty of God. God is in control, but man is free to make autonomous decisions and actions.
God could prevent sin by killing us before we are born, but then he could not have fellowship with us. If he allows us to exist so that we might have fellowship with him, then necessarily there is the possibility we will sin and reject him. Of course, we ALL do sin. It cannot be avoided.
It is like my analogy, I would not want or desire my son to perform this dangerous stunt that I am certain will result in serious injury, but he is an adult and I cannot stop him. Likewise, God made us free creatures so that we are enabled to willingly love him OR reject him. Sin cannot be avoided with free will, it is a necessity.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
I personally do not believe God could make us mindless robots who never sin, because it is immoral to enslave a person. It is the devil who seeks to enslave people.
2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
It is the devil who lays a snare for us and seeks to take us captive. He wants us to be his robots and slaves. God wants us to be free, but to willingly love him in freedom.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
God is not about making folks captives and slaves, he is about making men free. You love God because you want to of your own free will and choice. This is where Reformed/Calvinist doctrine is all wrong.
sorry, but you are portraying a God that can't get what he wants. You have a God that wanted a perfect world but man overpowered and sinned anyway. I agree that God allows people to sin as the first part of your analogy showed, but you error comes at the end to say that people sinning wasn't part of God's plan. Jesus is not an afterthought. I understand your difficulty with it. It's hard. It's called the problem of evil. We just don't understand it all, but we can't ignore it. The Bible clearly states that God uses sin to accomplish his will.
I don't have a problem with it at all, and explained my view. And it is a view that makes sense if you have adult children who desire to do something you feel is dangerous or will harm them. Wait till your kids grow up and you will see. You can't stop them, but you can take steps ahead of time to assist them as I explained in my analogy.
Your problem is that you can't conceive of God allowing men to be free. Try telling your kids what to do when they are adults and see how that works out.
Of course God could stop sin. He could obliterate everything but Himself and be done with it. This is HIS universe. He can do what He wants with it.In fact, God cannot stop sin. Jesus said that offenses "must needs be". They cannot be prevented, even by God.
That portion of your statement I highlighted in red is where I believe Reformed/Calvinist theology goes off the tracks. In fact, God cannot stop sin. Jesus said that offenses "must needs be". They cannot be prevented, even by God.
Reformed/Calvinist theology overemphasizes the sovereignty of God. God is in control, but man is free to make autonomous decisions and actions.
God could prevent sin by killing us before we are born, but then he could not have fellowship with us. If he allows us to exist so that we might have fellowship with him, then necessarily there is the possibility we will sin and reject him. Of course, we ALL do sin. It cannot be avoided.
It is like my analogy, I would not want or desire my son to perform this dangerous stunt that I am certain will result in serious injury, but he is an adult and I cannot stop him. Likewise, God made us free creatures so that we are enabled to willingly love him OR reject him. Sin cannot be avoided with free will, it is a necessity.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
I personally do not believe God could make us mindless robots who never sin, because it is immoral to enslave a person. It is the devil who seeks to enslave people.
2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
It is the devil who lays a snare for us and seeks to take us captive. He wants us to be his robots and slaves. God wants us to be free, but to willingly love him in freedom.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
God is not about making folks captives and slaves, he is about making men free. You love God because you want to of your own free will and choice. This is where Reformed/Calvinist doctrine is all wrong.
Is God omnipotent Yes meaning He could stop sin if He had wanted. Would He no why because God is immutable, God created man to make cjhoices, good or evil, God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because if Adam did he would surely die. Since God made Adam with volition God being immutable cannot then change his mind and prevent Him from sinning. So instead Going being Omniscient and knowing Adam would sin made a plan long before creating Adam for Adam's salvation. In fact God knew it would not be good for man to be alone so he planned to create Eve and He did just that, did He have to no but because He knew Adam would need a companion and need to have offspring He made provision forit. Since He is Omniscient and immutable He didn't use His Omnipotence to stop sin even though He could. He didn't violate not one part of His charector in it all and His plan today is the same as it was in eternity past that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
convicted1
Guest
There's only one thing that God can not truly do, and that is lie. Anything else, He can stop at any moment He chooses to.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Of course God could stop sin. He could obliterate everything but Himself and be done with it. This is HIS universe. He can do what He wants with it.
:thumbsup:
He is, and He is in full control. Something that is shocking to others, including believers.
Of course God could stop sin. He could obliterate everything but Himself and be done with it. This is HIS universe. He can do what He wants with it.
No, Jesus said that sin is necessary, it "must needs be",
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
God wants folks who willingly love him of their own free choice, not mindless robots. But this same freedom that allows us to freely choose him also enables us to freely reject and hate him. It cannot be avoided, even by God, "it must needs be".
Without freedom, love cannot exist. But freedom also enables rebellion and hatred. You cannot have one without the other.
convicted1
Guest
No, Jesus said that sin is necessary, it "must needs be",
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
God wants folks who willingly love him of their own free choice, not mindless robots. But this same freedom that allows us to freely choose him also enables us to freely reject and hate him. It cannot be avoided, even by God, "it must needs be".
Without freedom, love cannot exist. But freedom also enables rebellion and hatred. You cannot have one without the other.
To state that God can not stop sin is to handcuff His hands behind His back(theorhetically speaking that is). The sin "must needs be" to fulfill a greater purpose. If God wanted to, He could have stopped Lucifer before he rebelled. If He wanted to, He would not have placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. However, He does things His way, and His ways are far above ours.
Yes, sin will happen in this sinful world. That is what Jesus means. But only until He has put everything under His feet. Then sin won't "needs be".No, Jesus said that sin is necessary, it "must needs be",
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
To state that God can not stop sin is to handcuff His hands behind His back(theorhetically speaking that is). The sin "must needs be" to fulfill a greater purpose. If God wanted to, He could have stopped Lucifer before he rebelled. If He wanted to, He would not have placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. However, He does things His way, and His ways are far above ours.
I am sorry to disagree. God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to enable love. They could have chosen to obey God and love him if they wanted to, but they believed Satan's lie and chose to disobey.
If God had not put the tree in the garden with a commandment not to eat of it, then there could be no possibility of obedience. But to obey there must also exist the possibility to disobey, one cannot exist without the other.
It was just as much an opportunity to obey and love God as it was to disobey in the garden. God did not tempt Adam and Eve, he had sternly warned them that if they ate of the tree they would surely die. This is not a temptation, it is a WARNING.
convicted1
Guest
I am sorry to disagree. God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to enable love. They could have chosen to obey God and love him if they wanted to, but they believed Satan's lie and chose to disobey.
No need to apologize Brother. I agree with this, btw.
If God had not put the tree in the garden with a commandment not to eat of it, then there could be no possibility of obedience. But to obey there must also exist the possibility to disobey, one cannot exist without the other.
I also agree with this.
It was just as much an opportunity to obey and love God as it was to disobey in the garden. God did not tempt Adam and Eve, He had sternly warned them that if they ate of the tree they would surely die. This is not a temptation, it is a WARNING.
I also agree with this.
But if God wanted to, He could have stopped Lucifer and not allowed sin to come into "being". For whatever reason, He chose/chooses to allow sin to be here.
No need to apologize Brother. I agree with this, btw.
I also agree with this.
I also agree with this.
But if God wanted to, He could have stopped Lucifer and not allowed sin to come into "being". For whatever reason, He chose/chooses to allow sin to be here.
Since He knew the choices Lucifer and the other angels would make and He knew the choices Adam and Eve would make He could have chosen not to create them at all. But He did what He had planned and allowed what He allowed.
convicted1
Guest
Since He knew the choices Lucifer and the other angels would make and He knew the choices Adam and Eve would make He could have chosen not to create them at all. But He did what He had planned and allowed what He allowed.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
No need to apologize Brother. I agree with this, btw.
I also agree with this.
I also agree with this.
But if God wanted to, He could have stopped Lucifer and not allowed sin to come into "being". For whatever reason, He chose/chooses to allow sin to be here.
I am sorry to disagree. The scriptures say God is LOVE.
1 Jhn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
God is love, and he cannot deny himself. He MUST give us choice, without choice love is impossible. You cannot force anyone to love you, it cannot be done, even by God. But God does not desire to force or compel us to love him. He commands it because it is right, but we have the choice to obey or disobey. It must be so, for without choice there can be no love. Without choice there can be no obedience.
We are commanded to love one another, we are not forced or compelled. It is a willing choice, an act of obedience. We are not robots, neither does God want robots, he wants people who willingly love him and willingly choose to obey his commandments.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Uh Oh God just allowed us to agree on something
convicted1
Guest
Uh Oh God just allowed us to agree on something
BTW, I am not a calvinist, so we agree more than you may know...
Since He knew the choices Lucifer and the other angels would make and He knew the choices Adam and Eve would make He could have chosen not to create them at all. But He did what He had planned and allowed what He allowed.
False, Jesus said that sin MUST needs be. It cannot be avoided. Jesus didn't say it was an option, he said it was a necessity. There is no possibility for God to make creatures that could love him unless they have choice, and this choice must enable rebellion. One cannot exist without the other.
Till folks understand this they will never get it right.
False, Jesus said that sin MUST needs be. It cannot be avoided. Jesus didn't say it was an option, he said it was a necessity. There is no possibility for God to make creatures that could love him unless they have choice, and this choice must enable rebellion. One cannot exist without the other.
Till folks understand this they will never get it right.
There in is the problem God is Omnipotent and Omniscient. Since he knew their Choices before hand He could have just not created them. Since God did create them then sin must needs be for God to show Himself as a just and fair God. That is why man was created and God allowed us volition. He never willed sin but He definitely expected it and made plans to overrule its effect by sending Christ to be the Atonement for all sin.