Did God will for man to sin?

[jbh28]

What?? It is EXACTLY that they WOULD NOT. Those are Jesus's exact words. You are the one who is denying the direct word of God.

Not the children. Go read it again. It's not the children that's in the "would not.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The "would not" is the people in Jerusalem. and in context, the pharisees.

You deny the obvious, men can disobey God. We can GRIEVE the Holy Spirit. We can frustrate God. God does not always get his way with us.

I have done no such thing.I never denied that man can disobey god. It's obvious you don't read what I write. I have said many times(including the last post of mine) that man can disobey God. You are just making stuff up now.

Again, you do not know the scriptures, the scriptures say we limit God.

ad hominem and heretical. You deny God's sovereignty.

And I'm trying to show you that your view is unscriptural

you are denying the sovereignty of God. You say God can't do things because man can stop him. Your proof text is a misuse of the term. The Hebrew term there means to grieve or provoke and not "limit" as we use it today.

God will defeat sin, but it has not happened yet.

True, so you need to correct you error that God couldn't prevent sin.

I would agree God is allowing man to sin, God could kill any of us at any time and prevent us from sinning again. But God must allow us to sin, he cannot give us free will AND control our every action, that is an impossibility.

There is more than one way to stop sin from happening other than killing the person off. The providence of God is good. Remember, God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able. I Cor 10:13. I wonder how many times we would have sinned, but God made a way of escape for us to keep us from sinning.

God cannot give man free will AND prevent sin. If men have free will they can sin if they desire to, and nothing short of destroying them can prevent it. Again, it is like my kids, I cannot stop them from drinking alcohol if they desire to do so, they are adults. I certainly wouldn't kill them, but this is the only way I could prevent them from drinking if that's what they want to do.

1. Will man have free will in heaven?
2. Will there be sin in heaven?
3. If number 2 is no, is it because

God will defeat sin

?

See, you really don't believe men have free will. You think their actions are being controlled by God, they are robots and puppets.

Again, another false accusation of me. come on winman, you know better than this. I do not believe that we are robots and God makes all our choices.

If so, then man is not responsible for sin, God is. If men are truly responsible for their own sin (and they are), then you must admit men are acting on their own. Of course, this upsets your false and unscriptural view of sovereignty.

:BangHead::BangHead: Read what I write please.

But you implied I had never considered these issues before. I was thinking about these issues before you were born.

I'm not sure where I implied it, but I didn't mean to. I apologize if you inferred that I had said that of you. (ok, I have to admit, I really wanted to use the correct form of inferred and implied. )

Yes. I am not saying God couldn't absolutely stop sin. God could kill all of us before we can commit sin. But I don't think that is what God wants to do. God wants us to choose him of our own free will. That same free will that allows us to choose him also enables us to disobey and sin, it cannot be prevented. You cannot have free will AND prevent sin. Free will by definition means a person can chose to sin. It is a NECESSITY.

It's a "necessity" because God wants something to be accomplished by allowing sin. That's much different from saying God can't stop sin. And in case you missed it, God can keep us from sinning in more ways that just killing us.

Again, I don't think there will be a need to prevent sin in heaven, all who are there have already rejected sin in this life. There will be no one there who loves sin and desires to sin.

It's prevented because God has defeated it.

 

[convicted1]

I think why Brother Winman is stating that God can not stop sin is because God has given mankind the choice to either accept or reject Him. If they reject Him, it is of their own choosing, and will pay for it if they do not repent at a later date. Is this correct, Brother Winman? I don't want to put words in your posts, okay?

 

[Winman]

Not the children. Go read it again. It's not the children that's in the "would not.

[/SIZE]

The "would not" is the people in Jerusalem. and in context, the pharisees.
I have done no such thing.I never denied that man can disobey god. It's obvious you don't read what I write. I have said many times(including the last post of mine) that man can disobey God. You are just making stuff up now.

Jesus said how often he would have gathered THY CHILDREN. This is speaking of every single person in Jerusalem. But they WOULD NOT. They would not come to Jesus.

ad hominem and heretical. You deny God's sovereignty.

No, I deny your false view of sovereignty. You assume your view is correct.

you are denying the sovereignty of God. You say God can't do things because man can stop him. Your proof text is a misuse of the term. The Hebrew term there means to grieve or provoke and not "limit" as we use it today.

I showed you scripture that directly says Jesus COULD DO THERE NO MIGHTY WORK. I showed you scripture that directly says the Jews LIMITED God. Your problem is you follow a man-made doctrine and not the scriptures. Your man-made doctrine does not agree with direct statements from scripture.

True, so you need to correct you error that God couldn't prevent sin.

There is more than one way to stop sin from happening other than killing the person off. The providence of God is good. Remember, God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able. I Cor 10:13. I wonder how many times we would have sinned, but God made a way of escape for us to keep us from sinning.

You don't get it. You cannot give men free will AND prevent sin at the same time. The very definition of free will is that men can do what they want to do. If they want to sin you cannot stop them. The only way to stop them is to deny them free will, in which case they would be mindless robots or puppets, or kill them before they commit sin if that is what they want to do.

You are always trying to walk the fence. You want God to be in complete control, and for men to have free will at the same time. It cannot be done. I have seen this repeatedly from you, you want your cake and to eat it too.

1. Will man have free will in heaven?
2. Will there be sin in heaven?
3. If number 2 is no, is it because ?

I have free will now. I do not desire to sin NOW. But I still live in a fleshly body that tempts me, and in a sinful world that tempts me. That is no excuse, I can always choose to do right when I want to, but I often obey sin. This is the thorns and briers described in Genesis 3. As they made it more difficult for man to farm and till the land, so our corruptible fleshly bodies make it more difficult to obey God. This will be removed in heaven. We also will not have the thorns and briers of constant temptation of the world to deal with in heaven.

Again, another false accusation of me. come on winman, you know better than this. I do not believe that we are robots and God makes all our choices.
:BangHead::BangHead: Read what I write please.

But you do. You believe God is controlling every single event, and that nothing can happen outside God's will that it happens. If sin occurs, it is because God willed it, otherwise it could not happen if God is in absolute control. Of course, your view is an obvious contradiction, but many of your views are. You have allowed yourself to believe contradictions. You must allow yourself to believe contradictions if you believe Reformed theology, it is full of contradiction.

I'm not sure where I implied it, but I didn't mean to. I apologize if you inferred that I had said that of you. (ok, I have to admit, I really wanted to use the correct form of inferred and implied. )

Well, thank you! But we have folks here that have admitted they became Christians only a couple of years ago who speak like they are authorities. Most persons who have been Christians for many years have thought about these issues long and hard for many years.

It's a "necessity" because God wants something to be accomplished by allowing sin. That's much different from saying God can't stop sin. And in case you missed it, God can keep us from sinning in more ways that just killing us.

No, it is a necessity because you cannot have free will without the possibility of sin. That is impossible. If someone truly possesses the ability to make a choice for good or evil, then both can be chosen. It cannot be prevented.

Again, you seem to believe a person can have choice without choice, as you have argued men have free will, but can only choose sin. There is nothing free about that. That is an enslaved will, not a free will. Again, you believe an impossible contradiction. This is how Reformed theology has skewed your mind. I would have rejected Reformed theology when I was ten years old, it is so obviously contradictory.

It's prevented because God has defeated it.

I don't know if you watch the news, but the world is full of sin. Satan has not been defeated yet, and will not be entirely defeated until he is cast into the lake of fire. You deny the obvious.

 

[convicted1]

Here's how I see it...

God set the plan the way He wanted it........:tongue3:

 

[Winman]

I think why Brother Winman is stating that God can not stop sin is because God has given mankind the choice to either accept or reject Him. If they reject Him, it is of their own choosing, and will pay for it if they do not repent at a later date. Is this correct, Brother Winman? I don't want to put words in your posts, okay?

Yes. It is God's will that men freely choose and love him. He does not desire to force or compel a person to choose or love him. To do this, it iis necessary to give men free will. But this same free will must necessarily enable a man to reject and hate God if he so desires.

I wanted children to love, we can all relate to that. I knew before my chiildren were born that they would commit sin. It is not my will whatsoever that they commit sin, but I know they will have a free will and will commit sin. I cannot prevent or stop it.

God NEVER wills any man to sin. God DOES will that men have free will so they "freely" choose and love him. But it is impossible, even for God, to give men this free will to choose him and to prevent sin at the same time. That is why Jesus said it MUST NEEDS BE THAT OFFENSES COME.

I could not have children and prevent them from sinning at the same time. They are going to have a free will and can sin if they want to, there is nothing I can do to prevent this, except not to have children in the first place, or to kill them before they have an opportunity to commit sin.

You cannot have true free will without the possibility of sin. That is impossible. God does not desire sin, but he cannot give men free will that enables love without the possibility of sin.

This is not difficult.

 

[convicted1]

Yes. It is God's will that men freely choose and love him. He does not desire to force or compel a person to choose or love him. To do this, it iis necessary to give men free will. But this same free will must necessarily enable a man to reject and hate God if he so desires.

I wanted children to love, we can all relate to that. I knew before my chiildren were born that they would commit sin. It is not my will whatsoever that they commit sin, but I know they will have a free will and will commit sin. I cannot prevent or stop it.

God NEVER wills any man to sin. God DOES will that men have free will so they "freely" choose and love him. But it is impossible, even for God, to give men this free will to choose him and to prevent sin at the same time. That is why Jesus said it MUST NEEDS BE THAT OFFENSES COME.

I could not have children and prevent them from sinning at the same time. They are going to have a free will and can sin if they want to, there is nothing I can do to prevent this, except not to have children in the first place, or to kill them before they have an opportunity to commit sin.

You cannot have true free will without the possibility of sin. That is impossible. God does not desire sin, but he cannot give men free will that enables love without the possibility of sin.

This is not difficult.

Well, the Law was placed so that when we did something He didn't want us to, there would be a consequence to that rebellion. God told Adam and Eve what they could and could not do, so that way, when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would answer for it. For without the Law, there could be no sin. God warned them what would happen if they partook of that tree, but they went ahead and ate anyways. If God had not told them ahead of time, then they would not have sinned? I am thinking not.

The reason what God can not stop sin is because, for whatever reason of His, it is part of His redemptive process. W/O sin, there would be no need to redeem anyone, because Adam ushered sin into the world by His willfull disobedience. I tend to think that God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil there to show mankind that they can not make it on their own, but need Him to rely upon.

 

[jbh28]

I don't know if you watch the news, but the world is full of sin. Satan has not been defeated yet, and will not be entirely defeated until he is cast into the lake of fire. You deny the obvious.

context context context. Do you really think that I think that God has defeated evil now? Come on. your unreal!

You said,

Again, I don't think there will be a need to prevent sin in heaven, all who are there have already rejected sin in this life. There will be no one there who loves sin and desires to sin.

Which I responded to THAT with my statement. OBVIOUSLY I'm speaking about in heaven and not now.

I showed you scripture that directly says Jesus COULD DO THERE NO MIGHTY WORK. I showed you scripture that directly says the Jews LIMITED God. Your problem is you follow a man-made doctrine and not the scriptures. Your man-made doctrine does not agree with direct statements from scripture.

then you deny God is sovereign if he can't do something because of man. And no, the word "limit" doesn't mean limiting God as I stated earlier and you ignored. God is either all powerful or he's not. God "could not" because HE, not anyone else, requires faith. man is not limiting God.

But you do. You believe God is controlling every single event, and that nothing can happen outside God's will that it happens. If sin occurs, it is because God willed it, otherwise it could not happen if God is in absolute control. Of course, your view is an obvious contradiction, but many of your views are. You have allowed yourself to believe contradictions. You must allow yourself to believe contradictions if you believe Reformed theology, it is full of contradiction.

No I don't. You either can't read or you are purposefully misrepresenting what I say. god is not "controlling" every event meaning that man doesn't make choices. I've only stated it so many times. And yes, nothing happens unless God does it or allows it to be done. He is in control. I'm only in a contradiction in your straw man version of what I believe. Maybe instead of saying I'm in contradiction, you would read what I actually said.

That is an enslaved will, not a free will.

Finally, you represent me correctly. Jesus said we are slaves to sin. We are not free.

I would have rejected Reformed theology when I was ten years old, it is so obviously contradictory.

more ad hominems Let's cut the personal comments shall we.

btw, the skipped portions is because I answered and you just repeated yourself. Either God is in control or he's not. If he's not, he's not sovereign.

 

[jbh28]

Well, the Law was placed so that when we did something He didn't want us to, there would be a consequence to that rebellion. God told Adam and Eve what they could and could not do, so that way, when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would answer for it. For without the Law, there could be no sin. God warned them what would happen if they partook of that tree, but they went ahead and ate anyways. If God had not told them ahead of time, then they would not have sinned? I am thinking not.

The reason what God can not stop sin is because, for whatever reason of His, it is part of His redemptive process. W/O sin, there would be no need to redeem anyone, because Adam ushered sin into the world by His willfull disobedience. I tend to think that God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil there to show mankind that they can not make it on their own, but need Him to rely upon.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Well, the Law was placed so that when we did something He didn't want us to, there would be a consequence to that rebellion. God told Adam and Eve what they could and could not do, so that way, when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would answer for it. For without the Law, there could be no sin. God warned them what would happen if they partook of that tree, but they went ahead and ate anyways. If God had not told them ahead of time, then they would not have sinned? I am thinking not.

The reason what God can not stop sin is because, for whatever reason of His, it is part of His redemptive process. W/O sin, there would be no need to redeem anyone, because Adam ushered sin into the world by His willfull disobedience. I tend to think that God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil there to show mankind that they can not make it on their own, but need Him to rely upon.

Willis, there can be no such thing as rebellion if there is no law. But you can also have no such thing as obedience without the law. This is what I am trying to get across, there can be no such thing as free will without the possibility that someone will rebel and sin.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to make a choice. He could obey God and live in a perfect environment, or he could choose sin and introduce death into the world.

God did not tempt Adam and Eve when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, as he strictly warned them not to eat of it, and said they would DIE if they ate of it. That is not a temptation!

The tree of knowledge of good and evil and the command not to eat of it enabled Adam and Eve to be obedient, but it also enabled disobedience. You cannot have one without the other, though many cannot seem to grasp this.

Likewise, you cannot have love without free will, but this same free will enables a person to reject and hate God.

God does not will that we sin EVER. But he does will that we have free will so that we can choose to love him. But this same free will must necessarily enable a person to hate God. It is NECESSARY, one cannot exist without the other, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[jbh28]

Willis, there can be no such thing as rebellion if there is no law. But you can also have no such thing as obedience without the law. This is what I am trying to get across, there can be no such thing as free will without the possibility that someone will rebel and sin.

God has a purpose for sin. Man's "free will" is how man sins. God doesn't temp(as you note below) nor cause man to sin. Man sins because he desires to sin.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to make a choice. He could obey God and live in a perfect environment, or he could choose sin and introduce death into the world.

correct

God did not tempt Adam and Eve when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, as he strictly warned them not to eat of it, and said they would DIE if they ate of it. That is not a temptation!

Very true. James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

The tree of knowledge of good and evil and the command not to eat of it enabled Adam and Eve to be obedient, but it also enabled disobedience. You cannot have one without the other, though many cannot seem to grasp this.

Will there be obedience in heaven since there of course will not be disobedience.

Likewise, you cannot have love without free will, but this same free will enables a person to reject and hate God.

In heaven, if I remember correctly, you say will will have "free will" but not desire to sin.

God does not will that we sin EVER.

If you mean "will" as desire. Sure. But he does use sin to accomplish his purposes. Joesph went to Egypt because of the sins of his brothers. The death of Jesus on the cross came about by people murdering Jesus.

But he does will that we have free will so that we can choose to love him. But this same free will must necessarily enable a person to hate God. It is NECESSARY, one cannot exist without the other, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Well, my disagreement will of course be that "free will" is so that sin will be in the world so that God can show his love and mercy and redeem the world of sin. We won't have sin in heaven yet we will have "free will." Sin has always been a part of God's plan on earth.

 

[percho]

Well, the Law was placed so that when we did something He didn't want us to, there would be a consequence to that rebellion. God told Adam and Eve what they could and could not do, so that way, when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would answer for it. For without the Law, there could be no sin. God warned them what would happen if they partook of that tree, but they went ahead and ate anyways. If God had not told them ahead of time, then they would not have sinned? I am thinking not.

The reason what God can not stop sin is because, for whatever reason of His, it is part of His redemptive process. W/O sin, there would be no need to redeem anyone, because Adam ushered sin into the world by His willfull disobedience. I tend to think that God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil there to show mankind that they can not make it on their own, but need Him to rely upon.

Willis, yours in bold is the point of many of my posts. We think it is about God and man and man choosing to be saved. The plan was for God to destroy Satan and his works through a being, man, subject to deception and death and by God begetting a Son with the woman taken from the man. That Son who being begotten by the Spirit Holy would because of the Spirit of his Father live a sinless life and die for mankind.

It is by the grace of God in giving to that Son, who knew no sin yet was made to be sin for us and died for us, life again (regeneration) by which Satan and his works are destroyed.

God could have stopped there with the one Son being given life. But who would have really won the battle? God with his one or Satan with his millions?

Eph 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


The more that are saved the greater: the glory of his inheritance in the saints.

 

[percho]

Willis, there can be no such thing as rebellion if there is no law. But you can also have no such thing as obedience without the law. This is what I am trying to get across, there can be no such thing as free will without the possibility that someone will rebel and sin.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to make a choice. He could obey God and live in a perfect environment, or he could choose sin and introduce death into the world.

God did not tempt Adam and Eve when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, as he strictly warned them not to eat of it, and said they would DIE if they ate of it. That is not a temptation!

The tree of knowledge of good and evil and the command not to eat of it enabled Adam and Eve to be obedient, but it also enabled disobedience. You cannot have one without the other, though many cannot seem to grasp this.

Likewise, you cannot have love without free will, but this same free will enables a person to reject and hate God.

God does not will that we sin EVER. But he does will that we have free will so that we can choose to love him. But this same free will must necessarily enable a person to hate God. It is NECESSARY, one cannot exist without the other, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Does the New Covenant take Free Will out of the equation?

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[Winman]

God has a purpose for sin. Man's "free will" is how man sins. God doesn't temp(as you note below) nor cause man to sin. Man sins because he desires to sin.

God does not will sin, you can show no scripture to support this, while there are dozens, even hundreds of scriptures that say God hates sin and does not will it.

Free will necessitates sin, you cannot have one without the other.

You are married, do you will that your wife be unfaithful to you? NO, of course not. But you DO WILL that she loves you of her own free choice don't you? YES, unless you have some serious issues. You do not chain your wife in the basement so that she cannot possibly be unfaithful do you? Of course not, and I am sure you would never desire to do such a thing.

So, you DO will that your wife be free to choose you. Well, this same freedom enables her to hate and reject you if she so chooses. It cannot be avoided. At the same time, it is NEVER your will that your wife be unfaithful to you. This is how it is with God as well.

correct
Very true. James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

Correct. If it were God's will that men sin, then he would tempt man to bring it about. Simple.

Will there be obedience in heaven since there of course will not be disobedience.
In heaven, if I remember correctly, you say will will have "free will" but not desire to sin.

I do believe we will have free will in heaven, but everybody who goes to heaven has already chosen against sin and for God in this life. In heaven we will be perfected in wisdom and knowledge and know better to sin. We will not be tempted by our sinful flesh or outside temptations.

If you mean "will" as desire. Sure. But he does use sin to accomplish his purposes. Joesph went to Egypt because of the sins of his brothers. The death of Jesus on the cross came about by people murdering Jesus. Well, my disagreement will of course be that "free will" is so that sin will be in the world so that God can show his love and mercy and redeem the world of sin. We won't have sin in heaven yet we will have "free will." Sin has always been a part of God's plan on earth.

No, God COUNTERS sin. God wanted man to freely love him, but he foresaw this free will would enable and result in sin. It cannot be avoided. God had already prepared a solution for sin before man was created. He could defeat sin through his Son and demonstrate his love for us.

You don't get it, you cannot have free will without the possibility of sin. It is impossible. And you cannot have love without free will.

 

[jbh28]

God does not will sin, you can show no scripture to support this, while there are dozens, even hundreds of scriptures that say God hates sin and does not will it.

God doesn't not want sin. He hates it. I said that. But he uses sin and and sin is part of God's plan.

Free will necessitates sin, you cannot have one without the other.

Will you sin in heaven? Will you have free will in heaven? You said no before because you won't desire sin, so therefore...

You are married, do you will that your wife be unfaithful to you? NO, of course not.

True. God doesn't want sin. Never said he did. But he does have other desires. Like mercy. You say free will. So sin is part of his plan. He though doesn't want us to disobey him.

But you DO WILL that she loves you of her own free choice don't you? YES, unless you have some serious issues.

I may have serious issues LOL but correct.

You do not chain your wife in the basement so that she cannot possibly be unfaithful do you? Of course not, and I am sure you would never desire to do such a thing.

No of course not.

I do believe we will have free will in heaven, but everybody who goes to heaven has already chosen against sin and for God in this life. In heaven we will be perfected in wisdom and knowledge and know better to sin. We will not be tempted by our sinful flesh or outside temptations.

In other words, we will have glorified bodies and not desire to sin, yet still have free will. is that correct?

No, God COUNTERS sin. God wanted man to freely love him, but he foresaw this free will would enable and result in sin. It cannot be avoided. God had already prepared a solution for sin before man was created. He could defeat sin through his Son and demonstrate his love for us.

What about mercy? Do you think that God, being a merciful God, wanted to show his mercy. Wouldn't evil have to exist in order to show mercy?

You don't get it, you cannot have free will without the possibility of sin. It is impossible. And you cannot have love without free will.

Unless we no longer have the desire to sin but yet sill have free will, correct?

 

[Winman]

God doesn't not want sin. He hates it. I said that. But he uses sin and and sin is part of God's plan.

I say God counters sin. The devil is God's adversary, they are not working together, they work against each other.

Will you sin in heaven? Will you have free will in heaven? You said no before because you won't desire sin, so therefore...

No, we will not sin in heaven. We have already decided against sin here, when we are in heaven we will no longer be influenced by the flesh that wars against our spirit. We will no longer be tempted from outside influences, we will be perfected in wisdom and knowledge and know better than to sin.

True. God doesn't want sin. Never said he did. But he does have other desires. Like mercy. You say free will. So sin is part of his plan.

Again, you contradict yourself. If sin is part of God's plan, then God willed sin. God's plan is to counter and defeat sin.

He though doesn't want us to disobey him. I may have serious issues LOL but correct. No of course not.

Didn't think so. But you do want your wife to love you because she freely wants to don't you? Of course. I wouldn't want to be married to somebody who doesn't want me, that doesn't sound like an ideal situation to me.

So, you want your wife to be free to love you, but you never want her to be unfaithful. It is the same with God. He wants us to love him freely, not of compulsion. But this free will must enable the possibility of sin and rebellion, though it is NEVER God's will that we sin or disobey, just as it is never your will that your wife be unfaithful.

This is not rocket science.

In other words, we will have glorified bodies and not desire to sin, yet still have free will. is that correct?

Yes. We will also be full of the knowledge of God. Part of our problem here is ignorance and that we are foolish. We will not be so in heaven.

What about mercy? Do you think that God, being a merciful God, wanted to show his mercy. Wouldn't evil have to exist in order to show mercy?

God foresaw that man would sin given free will. God was able to show both his love and mercy through Jesus Christ his Son.

Unless we no longer have the desire to sin but yet sill have free will, correct?

Do you have the will to sin now? I don't. At times I get tempted by the flesh and outside influences and obey the flesh and sin, but afterward I am ashamed and ask for forgiveness. I can't wait to get out of this sinful body and world, I am tired of sin. I don't want to sin NOW.

Isn't that true of you as well?

 

[jbh28]

I say God counters sin. The devil is God's adversary, they are not working together, they work against each other.

of couse

No, we will not sin in heaven. We have already decided against sin here, when we are in heaven we will no longer be influenced by the flesh that wars against our spirit. We will no longer be tempted from outside influences, we will be perfected in wisdom and knowledge and know better than to sin.

No desire for sin. No sin in heaven

Again, you contradict yourself. If sin is part of God's plan, then God willed sin. God's plan is to counter and defeat sin.

which means that sin was part of God's plan so he can counter and defeat it.

This is not rocket science.

i'm glad, cause I would be in a mess.

Yes. We will also be full of the knowledge of God. Part of our problem here is ignorance and that we are foolish. We will not be so in heaven.

Right, so we can have free will without the desire to sin.

God foresaw that man would sin given free will. God was able to show both his love and mercy through Jesus Christ his Son.

Which is why I say that sin was always part of God's plan so that he can show his love and mercy.

Do you have the will to sin now? I don't. At times I get tempted by the flesh and outside influences and obey the flesh and sin, but afterward I am ashamed and ask for forgiveness. I can't wait to get out of this sinful body and world, I am tired of sin. I don't want to sin NOW.
Isn't that true of you as well?

Yes, because you and I have been regenerated by the Spirit. We should have good desires. We should not desire to sin. Now at times, we have sinful desires and give into those desires. But we confess our sins to God. We strive to be obedient to our God. We get better as we go. This is progressive sanctification. One day, we will be glorified and will no longer desire to sin. Satan will be set to the lake of fire. Death will be sent. No more death. No more sin. We will have glorified bodies and not desire to sin anymore. There will be no sin in heaven.

 

[Winman]

of couse

No desire for sin. No sin in heaven

Agreed

which means that sin was part of God's plan so he can counter and defeat it.

This is where I disagree with you. God did not plan sin. He foresaw sin and planned against it, but he did not positively plan for it. God hates sin. God never tempts any man to sin, why would he plan and cause that which he hates?

This is the whole point I have been trying to make. God desired free will so that man could love him of choice, not compulsion. But it is impossible to have free will without the possibility of rebellion and sin, even for God.

God could have made us mindless robots and there would be no possibility of sin. But there could be no love either, as love requires choice. But God is love and cannot make enslaved creatures. It is immoral to enslave another person. God must make us free, as he cannot do otherwise, but this presents the problem of sin. So God planned to counter sin through his Son Jesus Christ. In this way God could give us free will, he could show his love and mercy toward us, and defeat sin and the devil all at the same time.

i'm glad, cause I would be in a mess.

You are plenty smart, but sometimes you let it go to your head.

Right, so we can have free will without the desire to sin.

Have you ever done something really stupid in your life? I have. I once lit off fireworks in a crowd of people. The firework was supposed to shoot straight up, but it shot off to the side and hit a lady in her leg. It made a huge blood blister on her leg, and burned small holes in her clothing. I was apologizing up and down to that lady, I felt terrible. She was nice about it. I later sent her and her husband a coupon for a free meal at a very expensive restaurant in town.

But I tell ya, I learned a lesson. I will never shoot off fireworks near a crowd again, in fact I do not buy fireworks at all any more.

That is how sin is. We fail to listen to God and do stupid things he has commanded us not to do. We learn the hard way the consequences of sin.

Which is why I say that sin was always part of God's plan so that he can show his love and mercy.

Again, I do not think God planned sin in the sense that he caused it. I think he planned to counter it.

Yes, because you and I have been regenerated by the Spirit. We should have good desires. We should not desire to sin. Now at times, we have sinful desires and give into those desires. But we confess our sins to God. We strive to be obedient to our God. We get better as we go. This is progressive sanctification. One day, we will be glorified and will no longer desire to sin. Satan will be set to the lake of fire. Death will be sent. No more death. No more sin. We will have glorified bodies and not desire to sin anymore. There will be no sin in heaven.

Agreed. But it is not that we cannot sin in heaven, we will never again choose to sin in heaven.

We will not be robots in heaven. John was in the Spirit, and by mistake he bowed down to worship either an angel or fellow believer in heaven and was corrected. So, we are not going to be robots in heaven. John did not sin, he was mistaken.

 

[jbh28]

This is where I disagree with you. God did not plan sin. He foresaw sin and planned against it, but he did not positively plan for it. God hates sin. God never tempts any man to sin, why would he plan and cause that which he hates?

My point is that sin is part of God's plan. Yes, God hates sin, but desires somethings that makes sin be part of the plan. I emphasize God's mercy you say free will. So no, God doesn't want sin. I want to be careful not to portray God not planning sin, but sin being here anyway as if He couldn't do anything about it.

God could have made us mindless robots and there would be no possibility of sin.

God could have not given us a desire to sin like He will in heaven.

You are plenty smart, but sometimes you let it go to your head.

thanks, and you're right

Have you ever done something really stupid in your life? I have. I once lit off fireworks in a crowd of people. The firework was supposed to shoot straight up, but it shot off to the side and hit a lady in her leg. It made a huge blood blister on her leg, and burned small holes in her clothing. I was apologizing up and down to that lady, I felt terrible. She was nice about it. I later sent her and her husband a coupon for a free meal at a very expensive restaurant in town.

But I tell ya, I learned a lesson. I will never shoot off fireworks near a crowd again, in fact I do not buy fireworks at all any more.

I guess not

Again, I do not think God planned sin in the sense that he caused it. I think he planned to counter it.

I agree. God didn't cause sin to happen. God planning sin doesn't mean he caused it.

Agreed. But it is not that we cannot sin in heaven, we will never again choose to sin in heaven.

Agreed and we will not be robots will free will.

We will not be robots in heaven. John was in the Spirit, and by mistake he bowed down to worship either an angel or fellow believer in heaven and was corrected. So, we are not going to be robots in heaven. John did not sin, he was mistaken.

Right. I've always argued that man is free to choose what he desires. Here on earth, man desires sin. Less so after he is saved and has the Spirit. When we get to heaven, we will no longer desire sin with out glorified bodies. The limitation is not with the ability to choose, but with the desires.

 

[Winman]

My point is that sin is part of God's plan. Yes, God hates sin, but desires somethings that makes sin be part of the plan. I emphasize God's mercy you say free will. So no, God doesn't want sin. I want to be careful not to portray God not planning sin, but sin being here anyway as if He couldn't do anything about it.

God could not give us free will AND avoid the possibility of sin. If a creature has free will, then they can choose between good and evil, and there is always the chance they will choose evil.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

God could have not given us a desire to sin like He will in heaven.

I don't know if this was possible, even the angels were able to sin.

thanks, and you're right

I've got you figured out. We are more alike than you think. Just remember, you cannot BS a BS'er.

I guess not

Well, I learned a lesson, I will not light fireworks near people again.

I agree. God didn't cause sin to happen. God planning sin doesn't mean he caused it.

Good, we agree. But there are some who say God caused sin.

Agreed and we will not be robots will free will.

I do not believe we will be robots in any sense of the word.

Right. I've always argued that man is free to choose what he desires. Here on earth, man desires sin. Less so after he is saved and has the Spirit. When we get to heaven, we will no longer desire sin with out glorified bodies. The limitation is not with the ability to choose, but with the desires.

I almost agreed with a whole post of yours until this statement. Your view is that man is enslaved to his sinful desires and will ALWAYS choose sin. I do not believe this is accurate or scriptural. The scriptures show man has the ability to choose good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

The scriptures show man can choose good. Yes, all men are sinners, but man retains the ability to choose good. Proverbs 1:29 says that these persons did not choose the fear of the Lord, but it is not speaking of all men, but scorners, fools, and simple persons.

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

See, God is not saying that all men will be scorners and foolish persons who will reject his wisdom and counsel, there are some who listen to him and obey him. These persons "chose" the fear of the Lord.

Calvinism overemphasizes certain scriptures that show depravity while ignoring others that shows man retains the ability to choose good.

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

The scriptures DO NOT teach Total Inability at all. The scriptures show that man has retained the ability to choose between good and evil, and that some men choose good. Yes, we all choose evil at times, we are all sinners, but we can still choose good.

 

[jbh28]

God could not give us free will AND avoid the possibility of sin. If a creature has free will, then they can choose between good and evil, and there is always the chance they will choose evil.

That's not what you said earlier. You said we would have free will in heaven and not have the desire to sin.

I don't know if this was possible, even the angels were able to sin.

If it's possible in heaven it's possible now. However, I think God has a reason to allow sin in the present age.

I've got you figured out. We are more alike than you think. Just remember, you cannot BS a BS'er.

That's true

Good, we agree. But there are some who say God caused sin.

Yes there are, but the I don't see the Bible teaching God causing sin.

I almost agreed with a whole post of yours until this statement. Your view is that man is enslaved to his sinful desires and will ALWAYS choose sin. I do not believe this is accurate or scriptural. The scriptures show man has the ability to choose good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

The scriptures show man can choose good. Yes, all men are sinners, but man retains the ability to choose good. Proverbs 1:29 says that these persons did not choose the fear of the Lord, but it is not speaking of all men, but scorners, fools, and simple persons.

Total depravity doesn't teach that man is as evil as he can be. Man can make "good" choices. There are unsaved people that help others, are faithful to their spouse, work diligently at work.... these would all be "good" choices. What I do believe is that unsaved man will never do any of these "good" things out of worship to God. He does them without faith. He doesn't do them for glory of God. Therefore, in a sense yes, unsaved man always sins. But as far as making "good" choices, he can as noted above. What I don't believe man can do because of his sinful nature is seek after God, worship God.... He desires his sinful ways greater.

My point wasn't to debate you on this subject here as it would get us off topic. I was getting an understanding of what you believe "free will" means. I believe man is free to choose what he desires. I think on that area we agree on.

btw, we are on page 12 and are pretty much still on topic!!!! I think this should go in the BB record books.