Faith plus 'Works'. Do we have it Right?

[fortytworc]

When Paul wrote warning about those preaching 'another gospel' and 'another Jesus' other than that which they had received he was dealing very specifically with Jewish 'teachers,' or 'rabbis' who were trying to subvert the Gospel of Grace by explaining why those believers (Jews and Gentiles) needed to not only believe on Jesus but had to obey certain "foundational doctrines" of the Jewish Law.
Much of what they taught would go something like: "Jesus as Messiah is good. His blood did what no animal blood could do. No more sacrifice is needed. But He did not do away with circumcision, (this goes back to our beginnings as the symbol of our unbreakable covenant and everlasting identification with the One True God), you must be circumcised. God set up certain Feast Days and other Holy Days which are everlasting. You must observe these Days.
There are Dietary Laws we must observe. All of these are Basic and Foundational to anyone's claim to be part of Gods' chosen people. Add these things to faith in Jesus and you have done what is needed to be 'Saved'.
Paul was bringing the Gospel of Grace. The Good News of Jesus. There is no "Faith" (in Jesus), no "Grace" (Of God), Plus the keeping of the "Law."
Is it possible that we have added our own definitions to what Paul meant by 'works'. Just a question: In an effort to make some since of what this might mean or how the term 'works' applies to us today have we 'added' to and gone beyond what scripture actually says or means?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Before one can have an intelligent discussion of faith and works one needs to define them in Scriptural terms.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The problems lies in understanding the clear distinction between the grounds and conditions of salvation. Salvation is and is not by faith. Salvation involves works (acts of the will) and does not involve works, depending on whether you are addressing the grounds of or the conditions of salvation.

We know that something cannot be and be at the same time in the same sense, but something can be and not be thought of in different senses. Such is the case of salvation, being both by faith and apart from faith, depending on whether the grounds of or the conditions of salvation are being addressed.

 

[savedbymercy]

forty

When Paul wrote warning about those preaching 'another gospel' and 'another Jesus' other than that which they had received he was dealing very specifically with Jewish 'teachers,' or 'rabbis' who were trying to subvert the Gospel of Grace by explaining why those believers (Jews and Gentiles) needed to not only believe on Jesus but had to obey certain "foundational doctrines" of the Jewish Law.

That probably was True, but a standard was established, and Paul states if any man preach another gospel let him be accursed, if an angel from heaven preach a different gospel, let him be accursed. So fi does not matter if the false witness is coming from a jewish rabbi or a roman catholic priest, or a baptist minister !

Anyone making any kind of condition that man must perform to get saved is a False Gospel, even if its man's act of Faith or believing !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

sbm: Anyone making any kind of condition that man must perform to get saved is a False Gospel, even if its man's act of Faith or believing !

HP: You would paint the OT prophets, Christ himself, or the apostles following as all preaching a false gospel.

Eze 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.



"Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."


Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul was proclaiming that the ONLY requirement God has now for us to 'do" in order to be saved is to place faith in the One who he sent forth to be the saviour, His Son jesus the Christ!

 

[fortytworc]

In part my question comes from Acts chapters 10 & 15. Even for Peter the Jewish upbringing he had (and evidently was still practicing to one degree or another) was difficult to break away from though God Himself had told him (3 times) in a vision what He wanted.
In Acts 15 Gentile believers were given a small list of the Law that they should keep.

 

[DHK]

In part my question comes from Acts chapters 10 & 15. Even for Peter the Jewish upbringing he had (and evidently was still practicing to one degree or another) was difficult to break away from though God Himself had told him (3 times) in a vision what He wanted.
In Acts 15 Gentile believers were given a small list of the Law that they should keep.

Those were things (or works) that they were to keep after they were saved. We all are to do good works after salvation. "We are created unto good works" (Eph.2:10).

However, HP and SBM believe that "faith" in and of itself is a work. IMO, that is heresy. Faith is not a work, otherwise salvation would be "by works," a teaching contrary to the Bible.
"For by grace are you saved by faith and not of works."
It is evident that faith is not a work.

Rom.5:1, Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
--Faith is not a work.
Salvation is by faith, and faith alone. Faith is not a work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK has tunnel vision when it comes to works and faith. He refuses to acknowledge that there are works thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of', which are meritorious in nature, and works thought of in the sense of 'not without which' which are not meritorious. God alone designed and implemented the plan of salvation, and there is absolutely nothing, (did you read that DHK??) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING one can do to merit the forgiveness of the least of sins. Whatever God requires of us is NOT thought of as works in any meritorious context.



God, in His sovereignty, has so designed salvation to be accomplished on a personal level when we fulfill certain conditions, none of which are meritorious in nature. God requires of man to have a change of heart towards ones SIN, and to repent of our SINS, before He grants to us the gift of the hope of eternal life. Although the conditions God has set forth do require the will of man to form intents in agreement to His commands of repentance, faith, and obedience, that in no wise constitutes salvation by works as DHK falsely and unjustly accuses believers of. His lack of understanding of the true nature of God's conditions of salvation does not constitute salvation by works on my part or any other on this list. His inability to comprehend the truth of God's stated conditions in no wise negates them from being the works (in the form of acts of the will) they are.

 

[Jedi Knight]

DHK has tunnel vision.

Heavenly you still trolling the opposition?

 

[DHK]

DHK has tunnel vision when it comes to works and faith.

Nope! It is called "Bible-Vision."

He refuses to acknowledge that there are works thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of', which are meritorious in nature, and works thought of in the sense of 'not without which' which are not meritorious.

And who revealed this to you, an angel from heaven?

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

God alone designed and implemented the plan of salvation, and there is absolutely nothing, did you read that DHK, ABSOLUTELY nothing one can do to merit the forgiveness of the least of sins. Whatever God requires of us is NOT thought of as works in any meritorious context.

For salvation, God requires faith and faith alone.
Faith is not a work in any sense of the word.
To say that it is, is to preach "another gospel." (Gal.1:8)

God, in His sovereignty, has so designed salvation to be accomplished on a personal level when we fulfill certain conditions, none of which are meritorious in nature.

Read your Bible.
"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
Salvation is unconditional, and always has been. There are no conditions to salvation. It is the gift of God. There are no conditions to a gift; it is to be received by faith.

God requires of man to have a change of heart towards ones SIN, and to repent of our SINS,

Totally unbiblical. You can't even find that in the Bible. What fiction are you reading? The Vedas perhaps?

Although the conditions God has set forth do require the will of man to form intents in agreement to His commands of repentance, faith, and obedience, that in no wise constitutes salvation by works as DHK falsely and unjustly accuses believers of.

Do you belong to the Church of Christ?
It sounds like their theology. Each command you mentioned becomes a work that must be obeyed. The work of repentance, the work of faith, the work of obedience--all requirements of salvation. Be a Hindu HP! There is no difference if you want to have a religion of works, for that is not what Christianity is.

His lack of understanding of the true nature of God's conditions of salvaion does not constitute salvation by works on my part or any other on this list. His inability to comprehend the truth of God's stated conditions in no wise negates them from being the works (in the form of acts of the will) they are.

Salvation is unconditional. If you fail to understand this and accept this very basic truth, then you stand outside of Biblical orthodox Christianity. You are on the outside looking in. That is truly sad. I don't know where you stand, but it is not on the solid ground of the truths of orthodox Christianity.

Christianity teaches two basic truths which must be accepted by all Christians.
1. Salvation is unconditional.
2. Salvation is by faith and not of works.

If you believe otherwise, you are outside of orthodox Christianity, and somewhere else--where I do not know exactly.

 

[fortytworc]

Matt 10:32 Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.
33 But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.

Luke 12:8 Also I say to you, Whoever shall confess Me before men, the Son of man also shall confess him before the angels of God.
9 But he who denies Me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Romans 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from [the] dead, you shall be saved.
10 For with [the] heart [one] believes unto righteousness, and with [the] mouth [one] confesses unto salvation.
I have heard many conservative "Grace plus nothing" pastors over the years quote with little or no explanation these verses. The Romans 10:10 verse is usually used to encourage a "public confession" via baptism. With these verses in mind is "Confession with your mouth" any less a work than baptism? It seems to be Believe in your heart (faith) plus confess with your mouth (a work).

 

[DHK]

The Romans 10:10 verse is usually used to encourage a "public confession" via baptism. With these verses in mind is "Confession with your mouth" any less a work than baptism? It seems to be Believe in your heart (faith) plus confess with your mouth (a work).

Confession is simply a natural result of salvation. It is not a requirement of salvation. When I was saved there was no outward confession, at least not immediately, and yet I knew I was saved. A saved person will eventually confess Christ. He will not deny him. He will not be quiet about him. That is the meaning of the verse. I don't believe it is connected with baptism as some would have it to mean.

 

[fortytworc]

Confession is simply a natural result of salvation. It is not a requirement of salvation. When I was saved there was no outward confession, at least not immediately, and yet I knew I was saved. A saved person will eventually confess Christ. He will not deny him. He will not be quiet about him. That is the meaning of the verse. I don't believe it is connected with baptism as some would have it to mean.

I guess I never heard anyone say " this is baptism". Rather baptism was used as an avenue for their public confession. It is the emphasis on the importance of "confess with your mouth"...where one "confesses unto salvation", that has been the source of my question "Is 'confess [with your mouth] unto salvation' any less a work than "believe and be baptized for the remission of sins".?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Confession is simply a natural result of salvation. It is not a requirement of salvation.

HP: That is no where found in Scripture. God places a big IF between a right relationship with Him and confession of ones sins. There is not the slightest Scriptural indications that anyone can or will be saved apart from confession of ones sins. Here is the Word of God on the subject, not mine.


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"Let God's Word be true and every man a liar."

 

[DHK]

HP: That is no where found in Scripture. God places a big IF between a right relationship with Him and confession of ones sins. There is not the slightest Scriptural indications that anyone can or will be saved apart from confession of ones sins. Here is the Word of God on the subject, not mine.


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"Let God's Word be true and every man a liar."

The first epistle of John was written to Christians only. The pronoun "we" indicates that John includes himself. He is speaking of fellowship with God not salvation as you mistakenly think. Or are you affirming that the apostle John is not saved??

 

[savedbymercy]

Paul was proclaiming that the ONLY requirement God has now for us to 'do" in order to be saved is to place faith in the One who he sent forth to be the saviour, His Son jesus the Christ!

False Gospel ! A Person is not saved because of something they do ! Paul never preached them kind of lies !

 

[DHK]

False Gospel ! A Person is not saved because of something they do ! Paul never preached them kind of lies !

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[savedbymercy]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I agree with that verse ! Its the false gospel that I contend against, that one is Justified before God because of something they did, to include Faith or Believe !

 

[Moriah]

When Paul wrote warning about those preaching 'another gospel' and 'another Jesus' other than that which they had received he was dealing very specifically with Jewish 'teachers,' or 'rabbis' who were trying to subvert the Gospel of Grace by explaining why those believers (Jews and Gentiles) needed to not only believe on Jesus but had to obey certain "foundational doctrines" of the Jewish Law.
Much of what they taught would go something like: "Jesus as Messiah is good. His blood did what no animal blood could do. No more sacrifice is needed. But He did not do away with circumcision, (this goes back to our beginnings as the symbol of our unbreakable covenant and everlasting identification with the One True God), you must be circumcised. God set up certain Feast Days and other Holy Days which are everlasting. You must observe these Days.
There are Dietary Laws we must observe. All of these are Basic and Foundational to anyone's claim to be part of Gods' chosen people. Add these things to faith in Jesus and you have done what is needed to be 'Saved'.
Paul was bringing the Gospel of Grace. The Good News of Jesus. There is no "Faith" (in Jesus), no "Grace" (Of God), Plus the keeping of the "Law."
Is it possible that we have added our own definitions to what Paul meant by 'works'. Just a question: In an effort to make some since of what this might mean or how the term 'works' applies to us today have we 'added' to and gone beyond what scripture actually says or means?

If I understand correctly what you are saying here, that the works Paul was saying we do not have to do anymore to worship God is circumcision, observance of special days, sacrifices, and sin offerings, etc.…then what you wrote here is the beautiful truth. Yes, man has added their own definitions to what Paul meant by ‘works’! Yes, man has added to, and gone way beyond what scripture actually says or means!

I hope that you know that what you wrote is the Truth. Hold on to the Truth and do not let anyone talk you out of it.

There are so many things that we can do to obey Jesus to be saved…things that will show God how serious we are. God says search for me with all your heart, mind, and soul. That is something God tells us to do! Jesus says those who love me will get my teachings and obey them, then the Father and he will make their home with him, and Jesus will reveal himself to him.
That is something for us to do. We are to confess are sins.

It is a devastating tragedy, to say in the least, that one can read the scriptures what God says to do, yet nullify His words because they misunderstand what Paul says about works.