Limited or Definite Atonement is the Gospel !

[savedbymercy]

I believe that Christ is the seed of Abraham (according to the flesh).

Christ is the Seed of Abraham Spiritually ! Believers in Christ are the Seed of Abraham Spiritually Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now Paul is writing to both jews and gentiles here. How are gentiles the seed of Abraham, by the flesh or spiritually ?

Now, Abraham's Seed, is the Head of the Church, and the Head of Abraham. It is not even thinkable that the Head of the Church is Abraham's Seed, and Abraham be not part of the Church !

Abraham is the Father of the members of the Church, Christ's Body ! Speaking to the Church Paul says of them Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now are you telling me that Abraham's Children are the Church, Christ's Body, who is the Seed of Abraham, and Abraham is not of that same Body His Children are ? That is absolutely ridiculous !

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ is the Seed of Abraham Spiritually ! Believers in Christ are the Seed of Abraham Spiritually Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now Paul is writing to both jews and gentiles here. How are gentiles the seed of Abraham, by the flesh or spiritually ?

Simply because God both promised Abraham a "seed" as a NATION singular from his own loins AND a "seed" from NATIONS plural from the Gentiles. No contradiction at all.

Now, Abraham's Seed, is the Head of the Church, and the Head of Abraham. It is not even thinkable that the Head of the Church is Abraham's Seed, and Abraham be not part of the Church !

Wrong! The church as the body of Christ did not exist prior to Christ building it in his earthly ministry. The "FIRST" added to the church were the "apostles" and the apostles live long after Abraham. This proves that the church has nothing to do with spiritual union with Christ or salvation by regeneration.

1 Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The "foundation" of the church was not even laid until Christ laid it in His personal ministry and it consisted of "apostles" - Eph. 2:20

The Church of Christ or body of Christ was not existent in the time of Abraham or any of the Old Testament prophets.

Abraham is the Father of the members of the Church, Christ's Body !

The Scriptures never say such a thing or teach such a thing! God is the spiritual Father of all beleivers. The term "father" when used of Abraham in regard to justification by faith and believing the gospel means nothing more than a ROLE MODEL and has nothing to do with the church but with the gospel.

Speaking to the Church Paul says of them Gal 3:7

Wrong! He was speaking to the plural CHURCHES of Galatia and individually to each believer in the congregations when he said this. Second, this statement has nothing to do with the church but with individual gospel salvation (Gal. 1:8-9) which preceded the church age (Gal. 3:8):

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now are you telling me that Abraham's Children are the Church, Christ's Body,

No I am not as not all the elect are in the church as the church had no existence prior to the ministry of Christ on earth.

who is the Seed of Abraham, and Abraham is not of that same Body His Children are ? That is absolutely ridiculous !

It is rediculous to you because you confuse the "church" with "salvation." The same gospel was preached from Genesis to Revelation (Heb. 4:2) the same way of salvation (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12) but the church did not exist in the Old Testament and the church is not synonmous with salvation.

 

[savedbymercy]

It is impossible for the Head of the Church to be the Seed of Abraham, and Abraham not be part of the Church !.

It is also impossible for anyone to be Chosen in the Seed of Abraham [Christ] as Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him[The Seed of Abraham] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Everyone Chosen in the Seed of Abraham, which is Christ Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Is Abraham's seed ! Now was Abraham Chosen in Christ, His Seed ? If he was, then He was Chosen in the Head of the Body, the Church !

When Did Christ become the Head of the Body of the Church ? Before the world began. Col 1:18

18And he[Abraham's seed Gal 3:16] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Verse 17 says this of Abraham's Seed [Christ]

17And he[ Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is impossible for the Head of the Church to be the Seed of Abraham, and Abraham not be part of the Church !.

It is also impossible for anyone to be Chosen in the Seed of Abraham [Christ] as Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him[The Seed of Abraham] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Everyone Chosen in the Seed of Abraham, which is Christ Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Is Abraham's seed ! Now was Abraham Chosen in Christ, His Seed ? If he was, then He was Chosen in the Head of the Body, the Church !

When Did Christ become the Head of the Body of the Church ? Before the world began. Col 1:18

18And he[Abraham's seed Gal 3:16] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Verse 17 says this of Abraham's Seed [Christ]

17And he[ Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Your logic is all messed up. You are reading into these passages what they do not say or mean.

1. We were not chosen "in Abraham" before the world began but "in Christ"

2. Christ was in Abraham only in the PHYSICAL SEED sense as Christ needed no spiritual birth but this is in reference to his virign birth as the Messiah.

3. We are Abraham's "seed" in regard to promise and type not in regard to literal seed as all gentile nations did not come from the loins of Abraham.

4. The church had no existence previous to Christ building it in his earthly ministry (Mt. 16:18) as he set "FIRST" into the church apostles not Old Testament prophets or saints (1 Cor. 12:28) as the "foundation" consisted of N.T. apostles and prophets.

5. Hence, the church and salvation have nothing in common as spiritual union through regeneration occurred previous to the building of the church.

6. The metaphor "head" has no reference to spiritual union or the seed of Abraham but is a metaphor for Christ's POSITION of authority over the congregation (1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:23-25; 1 Cor. 12:21).

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Your logic is all messed up.

It is not my logic, but scripture !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



It is not my logice, but scripture !

If that is the case then deal with the scriptures I provided that prove the church had no existence until the N.T. ministry of Christ and the addition of the apostles as FIRST "set" in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).

If that is the case then deal with the scriptures I provide that proves the metaphor "head" refers to the position of AUTHORITY not to any kind of spiritual union.

If that is the case then deal with the scriptures I have provided that contradict your application of the chosen texts.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

We were not chosen "in Abraham" before the world began but "in Christ"

Where did I post that the elect were chosen in Abraham before the world began ? Show us the quote or admit publicly that your intentions are to misrepresent what I have stated !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Where did I post that the elect were chosen in Abraham before the world began ? Show us the quote or admit publicly that your intentions are to misrepresent what I have stated !

Show where I quoted or charged you with saying it?? I simply made a statement without charging anyone of saying it. Read it again.

However, this is a distraction because you cannot respond to 1 Cor. 12:28 and Ephesians 2:20 that totally demolishes your whole theory.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Show where I quoted or charged you with saying it??

Why did you post this comment ?

We were not chosen "in Abraham" before the world began but "in Christ"

 

[savedbymercy]

The Church was Chosen in The Seed of Abraham, Christ, before the world began !

Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

Paul Preached a Limited Atonement also because He would know that Christ's purpose was to save a Particular People, as the scripture promised He would do:

He shall save his people from their sins !



Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Much controversy is made over who are the People Jesus shall save from their sins ? What people shall He be a Saviour unto ? Trust, me, whatever People it is, all of them must be saved from their sins, in order for this prediction to be True, I mean 100% of that People, and not one should be Lost, as Jesus states here Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So all those the Father gave Him are " His People " that He shall save from their sins Jn 6:37; 17:2.

This same people is also His Body the Church, For scripture says He is the Saviour of the Body Eph 5:23

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Paul uses Saviour in the present tense, He is being the Saviour of His Body, The Body, with the definite article. The word body is the greek word sōma and means:

is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

a) so in the NT of the church

He shall save His Body, which is a Large number of men closley united as one Family, which is the Church, His Mystical Body !

It is the same as His People which is the word Laos and means:

a people, people group, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language

What People is closer to Jesus than His own Body Eph 5:28 ?

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul Preached a Limited Atonement also because He would know that Christ's purpose was to save a Particular People, as the scripture promised He would do:

He shall save his people from their sins !



Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Much controversy is made over who are the People Jesus shall save from their sins ? What people shall He be a Saviour unto ? Trust, me, whatever People it is, all of them must be saved from their sins, in order for this prediction to be True, I mean 100% of that People, and not one should be Lost, as Jesus states here Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So all those the Father gave Him are " His People " that He shall save from their sins Jn 6:37; 17:2.

This same people is also His Body the Church, For scripture says He is the Saviour of the Body Eph 5:23

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Paul uses Saviour in the present tense, He is being the Saviour of His Body, The Body, with the definite article. The word body is the greek word sōma and means:

is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

a) so in the NT of the church

He shall save His Body, which is a Large number of men closley united as one Family, which is the Church, His Mystical Body !

It is the same as His People which is the word Laos and means:

a people, people group, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language

What People is closer to Jesus than His own Body Eph 5:28 ?

There is no such thing as a mystical body of Christ made up of all the elect as the body of Christ is New Testament in origin, its very foundation was laid in the New Testament times, (Eph. 2:20) its "first" members set in it were apostles (1 Cor. 12:28) and other elect will be guests at the marriage of the Lamb outside the bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8-9; 21:24).

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

There is no such thing as a mystical body of Christ

Do you have a verse that states that ?

I am showing you proof that the my people, Jesus shall save from their sins, is His Body the Church ! Deal with the proof of scripture I am providing !

 

[savedbymercy]

He shall save his people from their sins !



Again, what People is closer to Jesus than His Church, His own Body, who is bone of His bone and flesh of His Flesh 5:30

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

So the Church, His Body, whom He is One Flesh with, as symbolized by Creation Marriage Gen 2:23-24

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Cp Eph 5:30-32


30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Or Jesus and the Church !

The Church therefore whom He is One Flesh with is the same people as Here Heb 2:14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

So, the Seed of Abraham here, the Children of vs 14 are the Church, His Body, His People. The members of His Body, also these people are not restricted to ethnic jews, though some are, but the Church is comprised of both jew and gentile as the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's [or Jesus], then are ye Abraham's seed[His People], and heirs according to the promise.[He shall save His People from their sins is a promise !

 

[DHK]

bib

Do you have a verse that states that ?

I am showing you proof that the my people, Jesus shall save from their sins, is His Body the Church ! Deal with the proof of scripture I am providing !

"There is no such thing as a mystical body of Christ "

Do have a verse that states that there is a mystical body? That is the larger question, the one you must answer? Let me guess. It is found in the Book of Hezekiah.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

"There is no such thing as a mystical body of Christ "

What scripture says that ?

I am showing you proof that the my people, Jesus shall save from their sins, is His Body the Church ! Deal with the proof of scripture I am providing !

 

[DHK]

dhk
What scripture says that ?

I'm glad you agree with me. :laugh:

 

[savedbymercy]

God only reveals the Gospel to His Saints !



In order to believe the Gospel, it must first be revealed to us, as Paul said Gal 1:11-12

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If Christ's Righteousness has been charged to our account, then the Gospel must reveal it to us Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Lets read Col 1:24-29

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery [The Gospel] which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Eph 6:19

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Now it is not even possible for the natural man, the unregenerate man, to receive the Gospel Mystery. This is why one must be born again to receive the Truth of the Gospel, to believe it ! God only makes it manifest or reveals it to His Saints, those sanctified by the Spirit of God unto belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13 !

 

[Yeshua1]

dhk


What scripture says that ?

I am showing you proof that the my people, Jesus shall save from their sins, is His Body the Church ! Deal with the proof of scripture I am providing !

back to the OP!

Are you debating here whether the Atonement was limited/unlimite din its nature?

 

[savedbymercy]

yesh

back to the OP!

What you mean, explain yourself. I know so far you have failed to disprove anything I have posted regarding who Christ died for, and who are the People in Matt 1:21 whom He promised to save from their sins. It is His Body the Church ! Now if you can me wrong from scripture, then do it !