The Convergence Movement

[Michael Wrenn]

I'd like to get thoughts and opinions about the Convergence Movement; I was influenced by this about 10 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_Movement

 

[mandym]

Charismatic practices = unbiblical practices. I would not take part in anything like it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Charismatic practices = unbiblical practices. I would not take part in anything like it.

Do you believe that the gift of tongues, prophesy, etc., are not for today, or do you simply disagree with the Charismatic interpretation and practice of them? For me, it would be the latter.

 

[mandym]

Do you believe that the gift of tongues, prophesy, etc., are not for today, or do you simply disagree with the Charismatic interpretation and practice of them? For me, it would be the latter.

The way tongues are done today is perverted. What happens in churches is about feeding the flesh and not about God being glorified. 2 Cor 14:22 makes clear what tongues are for.

Much of the other stuff i.e. holy laughter, slain in the spirit etc are further perversions of which there is no semblance found in scripture.

 

[AresMan]

Do you believe that the gift of tongues, prophesy, etc., are not for today, or do you simply disagree with the Charismatic interpretation and practice of them? For me, it would be the latter.

If some of these gifts occur today, it would seem that they are not in full force.

I would agree with evidence for modern-day tongues IF someone would actually demonstrate suddenly speaking fluently in a foreign language that is actually in use on earth and that it can be demonstrated that this person did not know the language prior.

As for prophecy, I would like to see something concrete, specific, detailed, and obviously not orchestrated. The vagueness of modern psychics would not count.

As for healing, I would like to something miraculous occur outside staged freak shows where one can argue prearranged "healings" for show.


I am open, of course, to God doing things miraculously today. However, I believe that God would do them in ways that are not easily fraudulently imitated or through pompous egomaniacs.

 

[Squidward]

Do you believe that the gift of tongues, prophesy, etc., are not for today, or do you simply disagree with the Charismatic interpretation and practice of them? For me, it would be the latter.

I've been there, seen that. Was a member of these churches and thank God I've been delivered from them. Many Charismatic churches pervert these practices. Yes, I do believe these things happen, but not for everyone and not near as commonplace as seen in any typical charismatic/pentecostal church. I believe the overwhelming majority of these "signs" seen in any typical church is fleshly. Even further is the gimmicks and nonsense seen in many other churches such as "drunkeness", "holy laughter", and goldust forming on people. This is a dangerous theology bordering in some crazy 1960s psychedelic cult. Actually not bordering, but a full on cult. Look up John Crowder on YouTube. The guy has a following he's leading straight to hell.

Now many of your mainstream Pentecostal churches reject and abhor much of the charismatic movement, but my daughter reminded me Sunday why I am glad I no longer attend pentecostal churches. After nearly three years of being in a church with Baptist leanings in philosophy and order, I never realized how sloppy pentecostal servces were. She went to watch a friend get baptized and she talked about the lack of order and organization of the service and how fluffy the sermon was. Just about anyone/everyone could just stand up and share a "word" of the Lord and the sermon was mostly a one hour emotional rant that started with the reading of a few verses and very low on substance the rest of the way. I've learned more about the Bible in my current church the last 3 years than I did in the previous twenty-some-odd years in pentecostal/charismatic churches.

Much of the other stuff..., slain in the spirit etc are further perversions of which there is no semblance found in scripture.

In my lifetime in these churches, I couldn't tell you how many preachers/evengelists lay their hand on my head only to feel I was being slowly pushed backwards to the point that I would stumble and have to catch myself. Those praying behind me would begin to get excited thinking "The Spirit was starting to move" in me. I have talked with others that said they have taken a "courtesy fall" because they continually feel the preacher pushing and pushing and knew the praying and pushing wasn't going to end until they just dropped backwards. It's a shame that one is at the altar with a genuine need and the whole prayer time is spent trying to avoid being pushed down. It gets where you completely lose focus on the need and end up focusing on "I'm going to have to catch myself or this guy is going to push me over."

 

[Yeshua1]

I would think that "modern day' signs and wonders would be done in areas new to the Gospel message. as a confirmation to Christ, or else dreams and visions in Islamic lands...

Know God still heals today, IF It is His sovereign plan...


Still gifts us today for His work and service, BUT think that JUST the sign gifts ceased after the Apostoloc Age!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I don't hold to the Charismatic movement, I don't agree with the theology, and much of the stuff that goes on is fake, and false doctrine.

Back in 1985, I attended a Charismatic church; the man who is now the presiding bishop of the CEEC attended there, as well -- Charles Travis.

Here's the website of the CEEC; I considered joining this about 10-12 years ago when I first discovered Celtic Christianity and the Convergence Movement:

http://www.theceec.org/

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't hold to the Charismatic movement, I don't agree with the theology, and much of the stuff that goes on is fake, and false doctrine.

Back in 1985, I attended a Charismatic church; the man who is now the presiding bishop of the CEEC attended there, as well -- Charles Travis.

Here's the website of the CEEC; I considered joining this about 10-12 years ago when I first discovered Celtic Christianity and the Convergence Movement:

http://www.theceec.org/

Most of my family is involved in the Charismatic movement and I have been a student of the movement for over 40 years.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Most of my family is involved in the Charismatic movement and I have been a student of the movement for over 40 years.

What do you think of the Charismatic movement?

What do you think of this Convergence Movement?

 

[The Biblicist]

What do you think of the Charismatic movement?

What do you think of this Convergence Movement?

Have you ever read Hank Hanegraaff's books on this subject? Read "Counterfeit Revival" and "Christianity in Crisis" on this subject. I agree with him that it is a mixture of New Age or Hinduism and mind cults with the dynamics of the altered state of consciousness and the so-called tongues is the common ordinary "esctatic" variety found in nearly all world religions in all ages.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Have you ever read Hank Hanegraaff's books on this subject? Read "Counterfeit Revival" and "Christianity in Crisis" on this subject. I agree with him that it is a mixture of New Age or Hinduism and mind cults with the dynamics of the altered state of consciousness and the so-called tongues is the common ordinary "esctatic" variety found in nearly all world religions in all ages.

I assume you are referring to the Charismatic movement and not to the Convergence churches, right?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I remember going to Lee University (COG, Cleveland, Tn) and I had to laugh at a lot of the stuff going on there. The praise music was always great and the preaching sometimes was good. However, when the "spirit" came upon people during chapel there was running the aisles, people looked like they were going into epileptic seizures which made me question that if they flung their hands around and punched the person in mouth next to them was that the Holy Spirit? People being pushed down when they didn't naturally fall down do to being "slain in the spirit". And the funniest thing (actually sad) was when there was an alter call for prayer I notice that certain young men would only lay hands on young women thought there were plenty of both up at the front. I remember during very exciting chapel services some "spiritually astute" students would say "if this school were really lead by the Holy Spirit then they would cancel classes so that we can continue in praise". My response was " do you think it ever occured to God when he sent you to this school that he wanted you to actually attend class?" I found lots of humor from "Pastors" in training. I heard one pastor say that he didn't shake peoples hands or let his children shake peoples hands because he didn't want their demons crossing into his family by touch. I had to laugh Because if I wasn't laughing I would be crying for the future of Christianity.

However, to keep in line with this thread it doesn't suprise me that Charistmatics would move towards a "Convergance Movement" because when you think about it. The whole movement starting with Pentecostals started out from the Holiness movement in the United States there is a legalistic trend in their background. However, for Charismatics where focus is on the new and exciting but in the hearts of the practitioners they want to get back to the exciting things that happened during Apsotolic times I can see the Holiness and the Charisma moving to early christian views such as monasticism. Remember that for many charistmatics they want to stay in that Euphoric state of worship and more God (Holy Spirit) they "get" the more they stay in that state. Also since they have been a modern movement focusing on the new it seems that they have an inferority complex when it comes to authority since many Charismatic Churches are independent and have very loose associations like the Vinyard. Most are lead by charismatic (personality) pastors. I remember many of the students at Lee would go to a church called church of the harvest but spent a lot of time speaking about the pastor rather than the faith. Any way it seems to me a natural flow from one group to the other.

 

[The Biblicist]

I assume you are referring to the Charismatic movement and not to the Convergence churches, right?

The Charismatic movement has gone from one extreme to another. Barking like dogs, serpent slithering, slain in the spirit, holy laughter. Different movements have arisen that converge them together, Word of Faith movement, Toronto Blessing, Convergence movement, etc.

It is a ever changing movement that crosses over many denomational lines usually by common shared experiences but diverse and often extreme false doctrines.

 

[Walter]

I assume you are referring to the Charismatic movement and not to the Convergence churches, right?

I have some relatives who belong to a CEEC parish. I attended church with them a while back and found their worship was more liturgical than it was charismatic. They celebrate the eucharist each week. I thought the preaching was excellent. None of the theatrics I have witnessed in the 'lunatic fringe' non-denom charismatic or Assembly of God churches.

 

[Yeshua1]

Have you ever read Hank Hanegraaff's books on this subject? Read "Counterfeit Revival" and "Christianity in Crisis" on this subject. I agree with him that it is a mixture of New Age or Hinduism and mind cults with the dynamics of the altered state of consciousness and the so-called tongues is the common ordinary "esctatic" variety found in nearly all world religions in all ages.

I was an elder in Assemblies of God for over a decade, before becoming a Baptist, so well aware of pentacostal cultic doctrines and teachers!

Micheal Horton/john mcarthur have wriiten books on this also, but tend to see them as lumping ALL charamatics/pentacostalists as being heretical/bad...

Would say that the "mainline' groups like AoG are teaching the real gospel, from Arminian perspective, bu that much of current charasmatic is indeed NOT from the Holy Spirit, but "another Spirit!"

Would recommend for reading A Different Gospel, by D. R. McConnell , as he was an oral Roberts grad, so he can critique from"in house!", and he does show differences between biblical pentacostals and heritical charasmatics!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I was an elder in Assemblies of God for over a decade, before becoming a Baptist, so well aware of pentacostal cultic doctrines and teachers!

Micheal Horton/john mcarthur have wriiten books on this also, but tend to see them as lumping ALL charamatics/pentacostalists as being heretical/bad...

Would say that the "mainline' groups like AoG are teaching the real gospel, from Arminian perspective, bu that much of current charasmatic is indeed NOT from the Holy Spirit, but "another Spirit!"

Would recommend for reading A Different Gospel, by D. R. McConnell , as he was an oral Roberts grad, so he can critique from"in house!", and he does show differences between biblical pentacostals and heritical charasmatics!

Does the AoG still teach that baptism of the Holy Spirit comes after conversion and speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of same?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have some relatives who belong to a CEEC parish. I attended church with them a while back and found their worship was more liturgical than it was charismatic. They celebrate the eucharist each week. I thought the preaching was excellent. None of the theatrics I have witnessed in the 'lunatic fringe' non-denom charismatic or Assembly of God churches.

Thank you for that very good information.

I have trouble with what I consider to be excesses in the use of vestments and clergy titles in the "catholic" and Anglican bodies, and their exclusivity about apostolic succession. Other than that, I like and agree with much in Eastern Christianity and Anglicanism.

And I like the CEEC a lot.

 

[Yeshua1]

Does the AoG still teach that baptism of the Holy Spirit comes after conversion and speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of same?

Yhey do, except they view tongues as ONLY valid evidence of such happening!