Is it a sin to think evil thoughts?

[freeatlast]

I would say Jesus was tempted to consider those sins, but never had the DESIRE to do them. His desires were always pure. Satan tempted him by appealing to his good desires (food, Rulership as God), and tempted him to fulfill those good desires in an inappropriate way; but Jesus immediatly rejected that. His desires were always good and pure. I don't see how one could say Jesus had a desire to commit adultery, pedophilia, drunkenness and still maintain that he was sinless.

I agree. There is no way that he ever felt the desire to do somehting that is sin.

 

[freeatlast]

To me that's a strange verse since we don't think with our heart; it just pumps blood.
However, I believe that any evil thought is sin.

Mark you are correct that any evil thought is sin. The bible says it is;
Mat 15:18,19
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

We know that the Lord never sinned so because of that we also know that He never had an evil thought.

 

[freeatlast]

The problem is that the scriptures clearly say Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. If we are tempted by our flesh (and we are), then Jesus was also tempted by his flesh.

Now, I agree with you on the crack cocaine, I think that is disgusting and would not feel any urge to try it. But that is an outside temptation, at least the first time. After a person uses cocaine, then it becomes an inner temptation arising from the lust of the flesh.

But Jesus was (and is) flesh. When he was in the wilderness, he fasted for 40 days and was very hungry. When the devil tempted him to turn stones into bread, he must have felt a real urge to do so. Of course, he did not and quickly rejected this temptation.

The scriptures say Jesus could be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. I believe this means he felt the same urges and enticements that we do. He never obeyed them when it would have been sin to do so, but he felt them just like we do. The reason he can be a compassionate high priest is because he can relate to our feelings and these temptations of the flesh. The scriptures say he "strived" against sin, so he had to actually battle or fight off these temptations.

At least that is what I believe the scriptures teach.

The fact that the Lord was hungry in the wilderness and the devil tempted Him to change the stones to bread does not mean that He ever entertained the thought even for a moment. If He did then He sinned according to Mat 15. You are not understanding the Hebrew passage. It never says He had the thought to do evil and just grit His teeth and did not do it as you are suggesting.

 

[Winman]

The fact that the Lord was hungry in the wilderness and the devil tempted Him to change the stones to bread does not mean that He ever entertained the thought even for a moment. If He did then He sinned according to Mat 15. You are not understanding the Hebrew passage. It never says He had the thought to do evil and just grit His teeth and did not do it as you are suggesting.

Well, I know what the scriptures say, and the scriptures say he suffered being tempted. What does this mean? The scriptures say he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

I am amazed at your view FAL, you are always telling us how as Christians we do not have to sin (and I agree), that we can choose to do what is right in the face of temptation. According to you, Jesus never experienced this as a man, he was oblivious to temptation, like a rock or stone.

I believe Jesus came in the flesh and had the same lust and desires we all have, yet he never obeyed these lusts when they would cause him to sin. He lived just as a born again person would, having victory over sin by faith and obedience to God's word.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

As a man, Jesus did not want to endure the sufferings on the cross, nor the separation from his Father. He not only considered not going through these sufferings, but actually prayed that he might not have to go through them. But in the end he was obedient and submitted to his Father's will.

So here, Jesus entertained a thought other than his Father's will and even seemed to desire it, yet he submitted to his Father's will and therefore did not sin.

The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and those that deny this are the spirit of antichrist.

 

[12strings]

The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and those that deny this are the spirit of antichrist.

Now was that really necessary???

 

[Winman]

Now was that really necessary???

Yes, it was. God felt it was necessary to say in scripture didn't he?

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The scriptures say that EVERY MAN is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust and enticed. Every man would include Jesus would it not? The temptation arises within a person's own fleshly lusts and desires. Jesus came in the flesh and had these desires. Yet he did not obey them when they would cause him to sin.

This belief that to consider a sin is the same as committing a sin is absurd. Every time we are confronted with a temptation would be a sin if this is true.

An analogy. Say you made a mistake at work and damaged an expensive piece of equipment. Later you are asked if you are the one who damaged it. You are fearful because you might lose your job. For a moment you consider denying you damaged it. But as a Christian you do not want to lie and so you confess you are the one who caused the damage.

In your view, you are guilty of lying simply because you considered it for a moment. It was no virtue to confess the truth, you had the momentary thought of lying and are therefore guilty of lying, even though in reality you did not.

Now, FAL likes to tell us how he goes days without sinning. Under this view, that would be impossible, for even when you refuse evil and choose good you are still guilty of sin because you simply considered sin for a moment. Absurd.

 

[convicted1]

Now, is it a sin when an evil thought first enters the mind? I tend to think no. Here's why. Jesus told the people around Him that it's not that which goeth into a man that defiles him, but what cometh out. There are times that satan will just put an evil thought in my mind out of the blue. I can not control the thought entering into my mind, but I sure can control it in that I ask God to take it away from me. So, if we have an evil thought, and then ponder on it for a while, then we could get into trouble(sinning). But, just because we have an evil thought, does not mean it's sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Now, is it a sin when an evil thought first enters the mind? I tend to think no. Here's why. Jesus told the people around Him that it's not that which goeth into a man that defiles him, but what cometh out. There are times that satan will just put an evil thought in my mind out of the blue. I can not control the thought entering into my mind, but I sure can control it in that I ask God to take it away from me. So, if we have an evil thought, and then ponder on it for a while, then we could get into trouble(sinning). But, just because we have an evil thought, does not mean it's sin.

Brother, I think this is where the problem lies with a lot of theology. We want to blame satan for putting certain evil thoughts in our mind. We seem to always turn back to that old Flip Wilson saying, "the devil made me do it" even though we don't say it as strong as he did we just say "the devil made me think it." I would like scripture on that one if you have any.
Our thoughts are our thoughts and they stem from an evil heart and we need to admit that and stop blaming for our satan for our sin.
I would ask you this. Do you really believe that Jesus ever has an evil thought out of the blue put in His mind by satan?

 

[Winman]

FAL, you seem to argue that Jesus was oblivious to temptations, that they just bounced off of him so to speak. The scriptures do not show this, but that Jesus could feel temptation. In the garden he prayed and asked his Father if there was any possible way "this cup" could be taken away from him. The scriptures say he was in agony. This sure doesn't sound like he was oblivious to temptation to me.

Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Notice God sent an angel to strengthen Jesus. Why did Jesus need to be strengthened if he was oblivious to temptation and could not feel it? How could he be in agony?

Albert Barnes wrote on this, saying Jesus in his human nature did not desire to go through these extreme sufferings, nevertheless Jesus chose to do his Father's will.

Not as I will, but as thou wilt. As Jesus was man, as well as God, there is nothing inconsistent in supposing that, like a man, he was deeply affected in view of these sorrows. When he speaks of his will, he expresses what human nature, in view of such great sufferings, would desire. It naturally shrunk from them, and sought deliverance. Yet he sought to do the will of God. He chose rather that the high purpose of God should be done, than that that purpose should be abandoned, and regard be shown to the fears of his human nature. In this he has left a model of prayer in all times of affliction. It is right, in times of calamity, to seek deliverance. Like the Saviour also, in such seasons, we should, we must submit cheerfully to the will of God, confident that, in all these trials, he is wise, and merciful, and good.

I am not saying Jesus ever had a sinful thought, I agree with you that he did not. But he entertained the thought that if it were possible he would not go through the sufferings on the cross. This was his will, not his Father's will. This he prayed as a man would. Nevertheless, he was submissive to his Father's will. Still, as a man he fully felt the anguish and anxiety of the sufferings he was about to experience. As a man he did not desire to endure these sufferings.

So, Jesus indeed had to battle temptation, he was not oblivious to it.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not saying Jesus ever had a sinful thought, I agree with you that he did not. But he entertained the thought that if it were possible he would not go through the sufferings on the cross. This was his will, not his Father's will. This he prayed as a man would. Nevertheless, he was submissive to his Father's will. Still, as a man he fully felt the anguish and anxiety of the sufferings he was about to experience. As a man he did not desire to endure these sufferings.

So, Jesus indeed had to battle temptation, he was not oblivious to it.

Give me your understanding of the definition of the word "temptation." What exactly constitutes a temptation to you? Also why do you feel that that Him asking the Father to remove the cup from Him was a temptation?

 

[Winman]

Give me your understanding of the definition of the word "temptation." What exactly constitutes a temptation to you? Also why do you feel that that Him asking the Father to remove the cup from Him was a temptation?

A temptation is defined by the scriptures.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

A temptation is a pulling or drawing that originates in a person's lust or desire.

Some examples are obvious, a person who quits smoking may feel a strong desire to smoke if they are around people smoking. They are "tempted" to smoke again.

In the instance of Jesus in the garden, as a man he felt the natural desire of self preservation. No man would willingly want to be severely beaten and then nailed on a cross to die.

Jesus was not unaffected by these sorrows he knew he was about to endure. The scriptures say he was in "agony". That is surely far different than the way you portray Jesus as being insensible to physical and emotional pain. As a man he felt the same feelings we do. As a man he did not want to die a cruel death just as you and I would not desire to do.

Jesus knew he had to go to the cross, he knew everything that was to take place. But as a man he was tempted to ask God if there was any other way to secure salvation for mankind. There was not, and so Jesus willingly submitted to his Father's will.

Jesus was affected by his own natural desires. His will was affected, he did not will to suffer. But again, he submitted to his Father's will and said, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine."

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

I don't know how you cannot call this a temptation, Jesus for a moment considered his own will and not his Father's.

Please explain how this is not a temptation.

 

[freeatlast]

A temptation is defined by the scriptures.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

A temptation is a pulling or drawing that originates in a person's lust or desire.

Some examples are obvious, a person who quits smoking may feel a strong desire to smoke if they are around people smoking. They are "tempted" to smoke again.

In the instance of Jesus in the garden, as a man he felt the natural desire of self preservation. No man would willingly want to be severely beaten and then nailed on a cross to die.

Jesus was not unaffected by these sorrows he knew he was about to endure. The scriptures say he was in "agony". That is surely far different than the way you portray Jesus as being insensible to physical and emotional pain. As a man he felt the same feelings we do. As a man he did not want to die a cruel death just as you and I would not desire to do.

Jesus knew he had to go to the cross, he knew everything that was to take place. But as a man he was tempted to ask God if there was any other way to secure salvation for mankind. There was not, and so Jesus willingly submitted to his Father's will.

Jesus was affected by his own natural desires. His will was affected, he did not will to suffer. But again, he submitted to his Father's will and said, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine."

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

I don't know how you cannot call this a temptation, Jesus for a moment considered his own will and not his Father's.

Please explain how this is not a temptation.

Win you are adding to what I have said. I never said that Jesus could not feel pain either physical or emotional. Because of you adding to my words I am cutting this off since I do not believe that you are sincere. That you for your input to this point.

 

[12strings]

Yes, it was. God felt it was necessary to say in scripture didn't he?

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I realize that, but no one here is denying that Jesus came in the flesh.

The scriptures say that EVERY MAN is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust and enticed. Every man would include Jesus would it not? The temptation arises within a person's own fleshly lusts and desires. Jesus came in the flesh and had these desires. Yet he did not obey them when they would cause him to sin.

I'm fairly sure there are many verses that say something about normal people, that would not apply to Jesus. So I would challenge the idea of basing a doctrine of Jesus's Temptations on a verse that is not talking about him. Here's one: "ALL MEN ARE LAIRS". Jesus was a man, so he must be a liar, right?

This belief that to consider a sin is the same as committing a sin is absurd. Every time we are confronted with a temptation would be a sin if this is true.

I think you are mis-understanding our, or at least MY, position. Considering a sin is not sin, if considered as a repulsive sin. Jesus spoke of adultery and murder without having the desire to do those things. I today, when I consider drunkenness, can think about it with no desire to be engulfed in it. I am thinking about the sin rightly. If however, my thinking changed, and I began to desire strongly to get drunk, this would be evidence of sin in my mind and heart.

An analogy. Say you made a mistake at work and damaged an expensive piece of equipment. Later you are asked if you are the one who damaged it. You are fearful because you might lose your job. For a moment you consider denying you damaged it. But as a Christian you do not want to lie and so you confess you are the one who caused the damage.

In your view, you are guilty of lying simply because you considered it for a moment. It was no virtue to confess the truth, you had the momentary thought of lying and are therefore guilty of lying, even though in reality you did not.

So just so we are clear, are you saying Jesus (Perfect, Holy, God) Had a desire to commit adultery, murder, pedophilia, theft, lying, etc...But did not sin simply because he did not actually perform the acts?

Now, FAL likes to tell us how he goes days without sinning. Under this view, that would be impossible, for even when you refuse evil and choose good you are still guilty of sin because you simply considered sin for a moment. Absurd.

I have argued against FAL's view of sinning before. I too am confused as to how this thread fits in. It seems that your view would make it easier to claim to go longer without sinning, since you can have all sorts of bad desires and yet not call it sin if you don't give in to them.

 

[Winman]

Win you are adding to what I have said. I never said that Jesus could not feel pain either physical or emotional. Because of you adding to my words I am cutting this off since I do not believe that you are sincere. That you for your input to this point.

I am not trying to add anything to what you say.

I am simply trying to show that Jesus was tempted like all men, and that temptation is not sin.

Jesus had a desire that rose from within himself to preserve himself. He did not desire to be beaten and put to death on the cross. This is not some outside temptation that came from the devil.

Nevertheless, he considered his temptation and willingly chose to obey the will of his Father. Jesus clearly said his will was different.

I do not know how you can explain Jesus's desire that the cup be removed from him can be any other thing than a temptation that arose from within himself.

If you can explain how this is not temptation I am all ears.

 

[Winman]

I realize that, but no one here is denying that Jesus came in the flesh.

Oh, but they do. People believe Jesus was insensible to temptation, that he could not feel the pull or desire of temptation. His desire for self preservation in the garden shows this is not so. No man would willingly want to be beaten and nailed to a cross, Jesus was no different.

'm fairly sure there are many verses that say something about normal people, that would not apply to Jesus. So I would challenge the idea of basing a doctrine of Jesus's Temptations on a verse that is not talking about him. Here's one: "ALL MEN ARE LAIRS". Jesus was a man, so he must be a liar, right?

The scriptures also clearly say Jesus was without sin, so he is an exception. But again, his desire for "the cup" to be removed from him in the garden shows he had desires to preserve himself from these extreme sufferings.

You have to go by what the scriptures say. They directly tell us Jesus prayed to have this cup removed, and that Jesus's will was different from his Father's in this instance. But it was not sin, because he willingly chose to do his Father's will.

I think you are mis-understanding our, or at least MY, position. Considering a sin is not sin, if considered as a repulsive sin. Jesus spoke of adultery and murder without having the desire to do those things. I today, when I consider drunkenness, can think about it with no desire to be engulfed in it. I am thinking about the sin rightly. If however, my thinking changed, and I began to desire strongly to get drunk, this would be evidence of sin in my mind and heart.

This is the issue, when is a thought sinful? Just because you consider adultery for a moment does not mean it is sin. If a young lady approached you and propositioned you, you might momentarily be tempted. If she was very attractive and very alluring, you might feel some desire to take her up on her proposition. But when you consider God and your wife, you reject this temptation. You have committed no sin.

Now, if you dwell on this, and allow your imagination to see yourself with this young lady, then you have probably crossed over into sin. It is a matter of the will. If you realize it is sin and reject it, putting it out of your mind, you have committed no sin. But if you realize it is sin and willingly choose to keep on thinking and dwelling on this imagination, then it is sin.

So just so we are clear, are you saying Jesus (Perfect, Holy, God) Had a desire to commit adultery, murder, pedophilia, theft, lying, etc...But did not sin simply because he did not actually perform the acts?

I do not know exactly how Jesus thought or what he felt because the scriptures do not tell us this. However the scriptures say he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

I like you, cannot imagine Jesus thinking on evil things. I think his mind was too full of God's word to think on such things.

I have argued against FAL's view of sinning before. I too am confused as to how this thread fits in. It seems that your view would make it easier to claim to go longer without sinning, since you can have all sorts of bad desires and yet not call it sin if you don't give in to them.

All I am saying is that because you are momentarily tempted to sin does not mean you have sinned. Any temptation by definition is a choice to refuse evil and choose good (Isa 7:16). You have to consider sin to reject it. The fact you consider something evil does not mean you have evil thoughts.

If to simply think of evil is sin, then every moment you choose good you have sinned, because you considered sin to make your decision.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, I think this is where the problem lies with a lot of theology. We want to blame satan for putting certain evil thoughts in our mind. We seem to always turn back to that old Flip Wilson saying, "the devil made me do it" even though we don't say it as strong as he did we just say "the devil made me think it." I would like scripture on that one if you have any.
Our thoughts are our thoughts and they stem from an evil heart and we need to admit that and stop blaming for our satan for our sin.
I would ask you this. Do you really believe that Jesus ever has an evil thought out of the blue put in His mind by satan?

I am not blaming satan for anything I have ever done wrong(sinning) in my life. When I was/am tempted by satan, it was solely my choice when I did that evil deed. But here's the crux of the argument. When we are tempted by an evil thought, seeing a pretty woman, someone ticking us off, etc., it is satan who instigates these. Now, if I have ever succumbed to any temptation, it was I, and not satan, who the blame falls on. Just because we get an evil thought, does not mean we have to act upon it. That evil thought becomes a sin when we succumb to it.

 

[Iconoclast]

The scriptures also clearly say Jesus was without sin, so he is an exception. But again, his desire for "the cup" to be removed from him in the garden shows he had desires to preserve himself from these extreme sufferings.

You have to go by what the scriptures say. They directly tell us Jesus prayed to have this cup removed, and that Jesus's will was different from his Father's in this instance. But it was not sin, because he willingly chose to do his Father's will.

This is a wicked falsehood. You do not understand this at all.

 

[Winman]

This is a wicked falsehood. You do not understand this at all.

Well then, neither did Albert Barnes, who was a Calvinist by the way. Here is how he interpreted Jesus's prayer;

Not as I will, but as thou wilt. As Jesus was man, as well as God, there is nothing inconsistent in supposing that, like a man, he was deeply affected in view of these sorrows. When he speaks of his will, he expresses what human nature, in view of such great sufferings, would desire. It naturally shrunk from them, and sought deliverance. Yet he sought to do the will of God. He chose rather that the high purpose of God should be done, than that that purpose should be abandoned, and regard be shown to the fears of his human nature. In this he has left a model of prayer in all times of affliction. It is right, in times of calamity, to seek deliverance. Like the Saviour also, in such seasons, we should, we must submit cheerfully to the will of God, confident that, in all these trials, he is wise, and merciful, and good.

Why don't you explain what Jesus's prayer really meant.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well then, neither did Albert Barnes, who was a Calvinist by the way. Here is how he interpreted Jesus's prayer;



Why don't you explain what Jesus's prayer really meant.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Barnes did miss it big time[if that is all he said]... Jesus did not desire to be seperated from fellowship with the Father....at no time did he shrink back from the task at hand.

 

[freeatlast]

. When we are tempted by an evil thought, seeing a pretty woman, someone ticking us off, etc., it is satan who instigates these. QUOTE]
No it is not my friend. Like I said that is nothing but the old Flip Wilson version of the devil made me do it packaged another way. If a person looks at a woman and has an evil thought it was because they have an evil heart in that area, not because satan instigates it. With over 7 billion people and all having thoughts and many of them evil satan would have to be in many places at one time.
Also not everyone who looks at a woman has an evil thought about her. We just seem to have a problem of confessing our sin and taking responsibility for what we do, and think, that it is really us and needs to be dealt with. Evil thoughts come from the heart not satan and not because he instigates anything. Do you really think that if satan was not around to instigate things in you that you would never sin? During the 1000 rule of Christ satan will be bound but, there will still be sin. What will their excuse be? They certainly will not be able to say satan instigated it. We have evil thoughts, which are sin because we have evil hearts, not because of an outside force like satan. We have got to stop making excuses if we want to overcome our sin and to really be able to confess it. The things we do are US! They are not a product of satan in any way. This is why we are told to put off the old and on the new.
Mat 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander..
A pure heart does not even have the thought of the evil and in the case of the Lord He had a pure heart and never had an evil thought. He never had to go to the Father praying and ask Him to take this thought out of His mind. By the way His request in the garden to remove the cup was not doubt or sin. He was totally surrendered to do the Father's will. All He was doing was asking if there was any other way to complete it. By the way I think the cup was a cup of gull, bitterness, sin. As bad as the physical suffering would be, becoming sin was the greatest most unbelievable suffering of all and He was seeking another way if possible. You know what it is like when we sin and how it makes us feel. Just think what it was like for Him who knew no sin and had all our sin suddenly put on Him. I can not even imagine what He suffered in that. No wonder in the garden He sweat great drops as of blood knowing what was coming.
1Peter 2:22-23
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.