Is it a sin to think evil thoughts?

[12strings]

Barnes did miss it big time[if that is all he said]... Jesus did not desire to be seperated from fellowship with the Father....at no time did he shrink back from the task at hand.

Icon, then how do you explain Jesus' gethsemene prayer?

 

[Winman]

Icon, then how do you explain Jesus' gethsemene prayer?

Icon is quick to accuse me of wickedness, yet never offers his interpretation of Jesus's prayer in the garden.

Matthew Henry also interpreted this to mean that Jesus prayed as a man would, with a man's nature, that he would be delivered from these sufferings he was about to endure.

He withdrew about a stone’s cast further into the garden, which some reckon about fifty of sixty paces, and there he kneeled down (so it is here) upon the bare ground; but the other evangelists say that afterwards he fell on his face, and there prayed that, if it were the will of God, this cup of suffering, this bitter cup, might be removed from him. This was the language of that innocent dread of suffering which, being really and truly man, he could not but have in his nature. 5. That he, knowing it to be his Father’s will that he should suffer and die, and that, as the matter was now settled, it was necessary for our redemption and salvation, presently withdrew that petition, did not insist upon it, but resigned himself to his heavenly Father’s will: "Nevertheless not my will be done, not the will of my human nature, but the will of God as it is written concerning me in the volume of the book, which I delight to do, let that be done,’’

Jesus truly had a human nature and felt the same pull and desires we do. He naturally did not desire to endure these extreme sufferings as any other man. But Jesus did not sin, he chose to obey his Father's will and not his own will.

This is two respected and well known theologians that agree with my interpretation. Icon can only hurl empty assaults because they they do not agree with his concept of Christ.

The point is, it is not necessarily a sin to entertain a thought other than God's will. We know Jesus never sinned, but as a man in this instance his will was momentarily different than his Father's. But Jesus did not give himself over to this temptation and chose to obey his Father. He committed no sin.

The whole point is the will, thus Jesus said, "nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done". It is when we obey our own will and disobey God's will that we commit sin. (Luke 22:42)

You see, when folks deny that Jesus truly came with a human nature that was subject to temptation, then they deny Jesus came in the flesh that is warned about in 1 John 4:1-3. A very serious error.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, then how do you explain Jesus' gethsemene prayer?

Jesus has come to earth to die a covenant death Gal 4:4 heb10:14.....that is why he rebukes peter when Peter says he should not go to the cross....get thee behind me satan:thumbsup:

As in post 39....Jesus only came to do the will of the Father...so there was no second thoughts, at all.

the sweating of blood and the prayer are Jesus in his role as mediator not desiring to be seperated from the fellowship and communion of the Father that he has always enjoyed;

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He who knew no sin,was made sin for us.....we as sinners do not grasp this as we should because we are used to sin.
for the sinless Son...this alone is what was abhorrent.

He was already in the garden moving directly into this aspect of the accomplishment of redemption.

Jesus never at any time thought about sinning, or not doing the father's will.he did not entertain the idea of acting independantly of the Fathers will.

 

[agedman]

Jesus never at any time thought about sinning, or not doing the father's will.he did not entertain the idea of acting independantly of the Fathers will.

There is no disagreement (in my opinion) between this sentence and what others are stating using such Scriptures as, "...all points tempted..." (Heb. 4)

If The Lord had "thought about sinning," he would not be pure in his thoughts and therefore blemished.

Was he tempted? Yes, that is clearly shown, but at each point He answered with clear declarations of the Scriptures (the sword).

Did he dwell and maul over the thoughts of his mind? NO! He was the perfect example of what Paul was attempting to achieve - "...bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience..." 2 Corinthians 10).

Being "equal with God" (Phil 2) the starting point of living was somewhat a reverse of the human "born in sin" condition. He left the heavenly to take our sin. We are to actively purge and struggle against the "...vain imaginations and bring each thought into captivity..." (2 Cor. 10). Christ faced no such struggle. Was He tempted? Yes! Did He struggle against the sin nature? NO!

The natural body reaction to sever stress is called hematohidrosis, hematidrosis ... See link here: http://voices.yahoo.com/hematohidrosis-phenomenon-bloody-7117962.html

For one to assume that Christ in anyway was in rebellion or "unwilling" to face the cross, is in violation of the very stated purpose in the Word. As the Word in Flesh, Christ would not have such a conflict even as a thought.

HOWEVER, the natural body certainly would show signs of extreme stress, just as it did at other occasions show its nature in such recorded situations as His weeping, His sleeping, His hunger, His thirst, ... But, being God in the flesh, His response to these and all stimuli of the flesh would be ruled by The Word of God - again, He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Winman]

There is no disagreement (in my opinion) between this sentence and what others are stating using such Scriptures as, "...all points tempted..." (Heb. 4)

If The Lord had "thought about sinning," he would not be pure in his thoughts and therefore blemished.

Was he tempted? Yes, that is clearly shown, but at each point He answered with clear declarations of the Scriptures (the sword).

Did he dwell and maul over the thoughts of his mind? NO! He was the perfect example of what Paul was attempting to achieve - "...bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience..." 2 Corinthians 10).

Being "equal with God" (Phil 2) the starting point of living was somewhat a reverse of the human "born in sin" condition. He left the heavenly to take our sin. We are to actively purge and struggle against the "...vain imaginations and bring each thought into captivity..." (2 Cor. 10). Christ faced no such struggle. Was He tempted? Yes! Did He struggle against the sin nature? NO!

The natural body reaction to sever stress is called hematohidrosis, hematidrosis ... See link here: http://voices.yahoo.com/hematohidrosis-phenomenon-bloody-7117962.html

For one to assume that Christ in anyway was in rebellion or "unwilling" to face the cross, is in violation of the very stated purpose in the Word. As the Word in Flesh, Christ would not have such a conflict even as a thought.

HOWEVER, the natural body certainly would show signs of extreme stress, just as it did at other occasions show its nature in such recorded situations as His weeping, His sleeping, His hunger, His thirst, ... But, being God in the flesh, His response to these and all stimuli of the flesh would be ruled by The Word of God - again, He cannot deny Himself.

Agedman, the problem with this answer is that you seem to separate Jesus's "flesh" from his mind. The "flesh" in scriptures includes the thoughts of the mind, not simply physical desires such as hunger or thirst. This is clearly shown in Luke 22:42 when Jesus said, "not MY WILL but thine". The will is not a physical desire but a desire of the mind and the thoughts. Jesus clearly expressed that if possible he did not desire or will to be subjected to the extreme sufferings that he knew he was to experience. His will temporarily at least was not his Father's will.

Is this an evil thought? Not really, it is the natural thought of the human nature. No man would willingly want to be severely beaten and nailed to a cross, no man would willingly desire that the wrath of God be poured out upon him.

The fact that this natural thought occurred to him did not make it sin. It is only when a person decides to choose and obey his own will over God's will that it becomes sin.

This is the whole issue. Because a person is temporarily tempted by the flesh and it's influence upon the thoughts and will, does this constitute an evil thought? No, otherwise Jesus would have been a sinner for having a different will (if only for a moment) than his Father. But Jesus immediately abandoned this thought and willingly submitted to his Father's will.

You cannot deny that Jesus had a different will from his Father, Jesus reveals this by his own words.

 

[Winman]

Another example in scripture is the temptation of Eve.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is clear from scripture that Eve desired the forbidden fruit before she actually ate it. Is this sin? No. It is perfectly natural for us to desire food, we need food to survive. Is it wrong to desire and enjoy beauty? No, all creation is beauty that God has given us to enjoy. Is is sin to desire to be wise? No, the scriptures instruct us to be wise.

So being tempted by natural desires is not sin. The problem with Eve is that God had commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When Adam and Eve sinned is when they obeyed their own will and disobeyed God's will. If Adam and Eve had walked away from the tree and not eaten, they would have been tempted, but not sinned.

This is where folks go wrong on Total Depravity. They interpret natural desires as sin, they are not. Jesus having a natural desire for self-preservation in the garden proves this. He clearly had this desire and will, yet we know he was without sin. It is only when a person willingly and knowingly disobeys God that he sins.

It is not sinful for a man to be attracted to a beautiful woman, this is the way God designed us, it is necessary for procreation. But we are limited to only desiring our lawful wife, this is God's design. It is not sin to enjoy your wife's beauty, but it is sin to lust after a woman that is not your wife.

To be tempted is absolutely natural, but it is not sin. The scriptures tell us to count it ALL JOY when we fall into divers temptations.

Jam 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Being tempted, or having a temporary evil thought is not necessarily evil. It is a test of our faith in God. When we are subjected to such a temptation, it is an opportunity to obey God and reject sin. By this we are strengthened.

 

[12strings]

Jesus has come to earth to die a covenant death Gal 4:4 heb10:14.....that is why he rebukes peter when Peter says he should not go to the cross....get thee behind me satan:thumbsup:

As in post 39....Jesus only came to do the will of the Father...so there was no second thoughts, at all.

the sweating of blood and the prayer are Jesus in his role as mediator not desiring to be seperated from the fellowship and communion of the Father that he has always enjoyed;

He who knew no sin,was made sin for us.....we as sinners do not grasp this as we should because we are used to sin.
for the sinless Son...this alone is what was abhorrent.

He was already in the garden moving directly into this aspect of the accomplishment of redemption.

Jesus never at any time thought about sinning, or not doing the father's will.he did not entertain the idea of acting independantly of the Fathers will.

You still have not explained why Jesus seems to be praying for something that he knows is not what is going to happen, something that is not God's will. He desires that his fellowship with the father not be disrupted, but he knows it is the father's will for that to happen...How is it wicked to say he willed something different than his Father?

 

[Winman]

You still have not explained why Jesus seems to be praying for something that he knows is not what is going to happen, something that is not God's will. He desires that his fellowship with the father not be disrupted, but he knows it is the father's will for that to happen...How is it wicked to say he willed something different than his Father?

I'm glad to see you noticed he did not answer your question. I wanted to point that out, but better still I wanted you to see for yourself.

This is a HUGE question you are asking, and it will change your entire viewpoint.

 

[Amy.G]

I think Jesus was simply asking if there was any other way in which man could be redeemed. The answer is no. Jesus never entertained a wicked thought or going against His Father's will in any way. That would make Him a sinner.

 

[Aaron]

Icon, then how do you explain Jesus' gethsemene prayer?

One thing we cannot do is project our own sinful tendencies into this account. Were we to utter those words in prayer, it would be for no other cause of finding a way to hallow our self-will, hence the tendency to project that cause into Christ's prayer.

 

[saturneptune]

I do believe that Satan can "whisper in our ear" and give us thoughts but it is the Spirit we are to listen to and shove those thoughts outside of our minds. So when I hear that some barbarian raped a baby, I will immediately think "Kill the SOB" but then I fight that thought and instead think of what God would instead want me to think. I don't believe the initial response is sin but had I entertained it, it would be.

There is a dividing line. Some have posted that any evil thought is sin. Not so. I think your post explains it quite well.

Every Christian has the Holy Spirit, and every Christian knows exactly where that line is. The intitial thought is not a sin. It serves no purpose to identify where it came from, whether our own sinful nature, original sin, or some type of demonic influence, really makes no difference. We are commanded to flee from sin. And each of us, down deep inside, know exactly when we have gone from temptation to sin. The line is not the physical act. The line is defined as when we do not flee from the sin, and start replaying and entertaining the thought in our mind.

A crude illustration might be driving down the road and seeing a girl walking dressed in an alluring manner. The initial look was not a sin. Looking in the rear view mirror or driving around the block is a sin, whether or not you stop to strike up a conversation. In your example, had you kept the hatred towards the person in your heart, rerun it over and over, it has become sin.

Unchecked temptation leads to sin and sin to death. Anyway, that is my take.

 

[Winman]

I think Jesus was simply asking if there was any other way in which man could be redeemed. The answer is no. Jesus never entertained a wicked thought or going against His Father's will in any way. That would make Him a sinner.

Not so Amy. Jesus was not asking out of curiousity if there was some other method of saving men, he was asking God to remove the sufferings he was about to endure. He did not desire to be beaten and nailed to a cross to die, he did not desire to have God's wrath poured on him.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

How do you get Jesus asking if there was another way to save men out of this?

Folks say they believe Jesus came in the flesh, but they do not want to believe he had a real human nature. The scriptures say Jesus was made like his brethren in all things.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The reason folks have difficulty believeing Jesus had a real human nature is because they have been taught that man is born a sinner. The scriptures do not say this, they say man is born upright, but goes astray in sin and becomes a sinner.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

If a person realizes men are born upright, then there is no difficulty believeing Jesus was born with a real human nature. The difference is that Jesus never went astray and became sinful.

Jesus had the same kind of nature we do that tempted him. His prayer in the garden proves this, his desire and will was to avoid the sufferings he knew he had to endure. Nevertheless, he did not insist on his own will and submitted to the will of his Father.

If you do not believe Jesus had a human nature like ours, then you do not believe and are denying he came in the flesh as warned about in 1 John 4.

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Iconoclast]

You still have not explained why Jesus seems to be praying for something that he knows is not what is going to happen, something that is not God's will. He desires that his fellowship with the father not be disrupted, but he knows it is the father's will for that to happen...How is it wicked to say he willed something different than his Father?

I think i have pointed in the correct direction;

23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

12strings

The answer is found in what brings glory to God....not looking for sin, or human weakness in Jesus. When satan tempted Jesus in Luke 4....it was no temptation because Jesus had no place for satans suggestion in Him.
satan was trying to Get Jesus to act independently of The Fathers will/
He tried to offer a kingdom without the cross. Jesus refused to depart from the will of the Father who sent Him.....jn 6,,,jn 17, gal4 jn12 hebrews 2, hebrews 10.

To suggest that His prayer is somehow trying to wuess out of the Eternal purpose is an evil suggestion

but for this cause came I unto this hour.

.

Although necessary....Jesus did not look forward to a time of broken communion with the Father...even though the promise of psalm 16 was still there for Him. He knew what was involved with the cross, and as he said The Fathers will be done. The fact that he asks is there any other way...just shows how evil sin is...and that there is no other way, than the cross. Every detail was necessary.

 

[saturneptune]

Although necessary....Jesus did not look forward to a time of broken communion with the Father...even though the promise of psalm 16 was still there for Him.

Not only did Jesus not look forward to broken communion with the Father, He knew the agony to come on the cross. I do not mean the physical torture, I mean, something no one else has ever felt, the wrath of God for the sins of mankind put on Jesus all at once. It must have been a feeling of pain, despair, agony, that human words cannot begin to describe.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not only did Jesus not look forward to broken communion with the Father, He knew the agony to come on the cross. I do not mean the physical torture, I mean, something no one else has ever felt, the wrath of God for the sins of mankind put on Jesus all at once. It must have been a feeling of pain, despair, agony, that human words cannot begin to describe.

Yes...I believe this accounts for the blood

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[freeatlast]

You still have not explained why Jesus seems to be praying for something that he knows is not what is going to happen, something that is not God's will. He desires that his fellowship with the father not be disrupted, but he knows it is the father's will for that to happen...How is it wicked to say he willed something different than his Father?

If I may give an answer here on this. The reason that Jesus was asking is because according to scripture Jesus did not know everything. He did not know if there was no another way or not.

 

[saturneptune]

Yes...I believe this accounts for the blood

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Excellent post. If we could just feel one second of the agony our Savior felt, our Creator, our God, I will bet we would take worshipping the Lord, telling others about Jesus, helping our neighbors as we want to be treated, attending church, etc, a very, very serious matter, and it would move right to the top of our list. In fact, I will go so far as to say that this would be much more of a motivator than the old idea of "if you could just spend one day in hell."

 

[12strings]

Well, I think I can safely say I disagree with Icon, Winman, and FAL.

Icon: I cannot agree that the temptation of Jesus..."was no temptation." I also do not see how simply pointing to verses where Jesus affirms his intention to do his father's will nullifies his asking the Father to remove the cup that he knows IS his father's will.

Winman: Um, I don't think Jesus had sinful desires.

FAL: I think Jesus DID know he would have to go through with the cross...He spoke about it for 3 years.


I would say Jesus was tempted. He had GOOD desires that Satan tried to use to motivate him to do sinful things. He refused. In His humanity, He truly desired not to suffer (not an evil desire), but desired MORE to fulfill his father's will, and for the joy set before him, endured the cross. So I guess I would say Jesus in his Humanity had a natural desire for self-preservation that could not be provided for if he wanted to Save Humanity and Fulfill his Father's will. In other words, he had a desire that was different than his father's will, but was not sinful.

 

[agedman]

Has anyone looked at the two words used for "will"

"If it be thy will..." is a different word than
"not my will..."

The first is a word used for a proclamation or decree, such as a king might declare a law, "Taxes are to be paid by April 15th."

The second is a more of an emotion word used more in line such as a choice. When one orders from a menu it is sometimes said, "I would like (will have) ..."

Christ is in no way asking the Father for a reprieve, but acknowledging the stress of what He in full knowledge knows is just a Judas kiss away.

Desire and emotion are not evil in them self. Often the Scripture speaks of Christ's desire, and He certainly displayed emotion - anger, sorrow, joy...

What He did not have was the same type of fallen nature we have. He, being God in the Flesh - the Word, had full understanding and full comprehension of all that had and would take place.

Christ was not pulled by the flesh into some rebellion against the Father's will. Christ was stating the unfathomable horror of the cross wasn't his choice, but He "humbled Himself..." submitting to the will of the Father. Christ's will never wavered from the will of the Father. Had it, He would not have been the pure Lamb God demanded.

By application believers are to follow the same "will." "Let this mind be in you ..." as Paul states. In such humility, and such denial of our own "desire," the Father's will might be made manifest in us.

As an earlier Saturneptune post reflects, "If we could just feel one second of the agony our Savior felt, our Creator, our God, I will bet we would take worshiping the Lord, telling others about Jesus, helping our neighbors as we want to be treated, attending church, etc, a very, very serious matter, and it would move right to the top of our list. In fact, I will go so far as to say that this would be much more of a motivator than the old idea of "if you could just spend one day in hell."

BTW, FAL - Christ did and does know everything, just as the Father did and does know everything.

 

[freeatlast]

BTW, FAL - Christ did and does know everything, just as the Father did and does know everything.

I choose to believe the bible.
Mark 13:32
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father