Smashing the "T" out of TULIP

[steaver]

No, you're the one saying that God must double damn them. You're putting words in others mouths. Why not put an end to that?

.

No, I never said God must double damn them, i said the "T" in TULIP would have to conclude that these needed double damnation. This is obvious.

You are obviously struggling with this concerning God sending stong delusion.

By the answers that have been given so far, it appears our TULIP believers are the one's struggling to make sense of double damnation.

If you believe what God does here makes no sense at all, I'd suppose you have a problem with Him doing so, which seems to be the issue.

I clearly see what God is doing here, it is TULIP which cannot. TULIP creates a double damnation, which would be senseless and quite silly. If one reads the scripture without the premise of TULIP's "T" , one can see that God is speaking about those who freely rejected the love of the truth, and so that they will remain that way, God sends them a delusion so they no longer have a chance to believe and be saved.

There can be no other meaning here. It would be just plain dumb to suppose that God needs to send a delusion for damnation unto one who has no possibility of comparing Christ to Antichrist and deciding to believe Christ. They had their chance, now God is sealing their fate to be damned.

There is no need to wrestle with the scriptures, just believe the simple truth!

 

[The Biblicist]

Verse 10 provides the reason for verse 11.

Jesus says that man comes into the world "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17-18) because all enter into the world as unbelievers. No one comes into the world with a believing heart.

Second, when they are confronted with the gospel of truth they are additionally condemned as the consequence as John the Baptist clearly states in John 3:36.

So those in verse 10 came into the world condemned as unbelievers (Jn. 3:17-18) and then received not the love of the truth when confronted with the gospel and so their unbelief became more aggrevated.

Paul is merely repeated the downward digression of condemnation spelled out in Romans 1:24-29 ("v. 24 Wherefore God gave them up......v. 26 For this cause God gave them over......v. 28 ....God gave them over...).

So there is a digression in condemnation. The more light they are exposed to and reject the greater increase of condemnation.

Hence verse 10 and 11 do not destroy any aspect of TULIP but really supports it fully. There is no double "damned" but rather increasing condemnation of those who are damned by their initial and increasing unbelief and rejection. Or as Stephen tells the Jewish rejectors of Christ - "ye do ALWAYS RESIST the Holy Spirit" as did your fathers (Acts 7:51). Hence, their increasing rejection produces increasing condemnation unto damnation and PROVES TOTAL DEPRAVITY.





Why are you editing Pauls own words? He said the reason they were saved was because they were "chosen TO salvation. Do you know the difference between "to" (Gr. eis) and "through" (Gr. dia)???? They were saved because God chose them "TO" or "UNTO" salvation. HOW they were saved is described by "dia" or "through." Only by editing Paul and rewriting it can you support your intepretation.

Steaver, did you read the post above???? Apparently not!

 

[The Biblicist]

Steaver, did you read the post above???? Apparently not!

I mistakenly attributed the preposition "dia" instead of "en" to the word "through" in 2 Thes. 2:13. I was depending on memory and confused it with another text.

However, the preposition "eis" translated "to" defines the cause of salvation to be in subject of the preposition "eis" ("to") while the MEANS or SPHERE of salvation identified by the preposition "en" ("through").

 

[steaver]

The thing you're really struggling with here is the Sovereignty of God to do as He wills to do with whom He wills to do so.

Are these folks innocent? Cannot God in His omnisapience exercise justice as He sees fit? Did not God blind others that they would not believe the Gospel? Doesn't God allow Satan to blind the minds of others?

Steaver, why do you have a problem with these truths?

Are you replying against the Potter steaver?

Most certainly.

As I said these are hard truths that you need to come to grips with. I need to go, but your OP fails to smash a thing.

What the Calvinist struggles with is they cannot come to terms that God in his Sovereignty can do His perfect will while at the same time allowing mankind to have a choice in the matter. While this is a mystery and beyond what we can comprehend, nevertheless, it is what the scriptures reveal.

The Calvinist cannot comprehend these two truths coexisting, so they have taken a stand to reject the freewill aspect taught in the scriptures and accept only the Sovereignty of God aspect, when both are equally true. It is hard for many to understand the Trinity and the Godman, yet they are true.

John Piper, a Calvinist, written a book called "Spectacular Sins". It is a great read. While I am sure John is still firmly a Calvinist, his book points dirrectly towards these two truths. Although he may not even realize it. You should give it a read, it could possibly help you understand this paradox given in scripture.

 

[steaver]

Steaver, did you read the post above???? Apparently not!

Yes, I read it.

 

[savedbymercy]

AMEN! Now do you have an answer as to why God would need to damn them again with a delusion so they cannot believe the truth??

I never read where He had to double dam them, that is just your rhetoric ! They are born damned !

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, I read it.

Well, I guess the next question would be did you understand it? Do you recognize the progressive stages of condemnation of those born condemned already? Do you see those progressive stages spelled out in Romans 1:24-29? Do you the see the stage in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 that precedes the stage in verse 11?

Do you understand that no man enters this world as a believer but as unbelievers and thus condemned already because of unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18)?

Do you understand that John 3:16 adds to that initial condemnation when confronted with the truth of the gospel??

Do you understand the biblical principle more light more responsibility, more light rejected greater the condemnation?

 

[steaver]

Well, I guess the next question would be did you understand it? Do you recognize the progressive stages of condemnation of those born condemned already? Do you see those progressive stages spelled out in Romans 1:24-29? Do you the see the stage in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 that precedes the stage in verse 11?

Do you understand that no man enters this world as a believer but as unbelievers and thus condemned already because of unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18)?

Do you understand that John 3:16 adds to that initial condemnation when confronted with the truth of the gospel??

Do you understand the biblical principle more light more responsibility, more light rejected greater the condemnation?

Yes, I understand all of this. But this does not satisfy the scripture posted in the OP. It's pretty obvious that God would not need to send a strong delusion unless it was possible for these to discern and choose to believe.

 

[steaver]

I never read where He had to double dam them, that is just your rhetoric ! They are born damned !

It is more than just my rhetoric, it is the necessary conclusion if TULIP's "T" is correct. Obviously it is not and this passage of scripture reveals this.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, I understand all of this. But this does not satisfy the scripture posted in the OP. It's pretty obvious that God would not need to send a strong delusion unless it was possible for these to discern and choose to believe.

Please read what I said again as it is obvious you did not understand what I said.

Since there is progression in condemnation there must be progression in exposure to truth and with each exposure additional condemnation. In the text, they are already condemned before they were exposed to the truth of the gospel. When they additionally rejected the truth of the gospel God handed them over to an additional condemnation described in verse 11. It is not they were additionally damned, but additionally were condemned. God gave them over unto another lie because they rejected the truth exposed to them in verse 10.

 

[steaver]

Please read what I said again as it is obvious you did not understand what I said.

Since there is progression in condemnation there must be progression in exposure to truth and with each exposure additional condemnation. In the text, they are already condemned before they were exposed to the truth of the gospel. When they additionally rejected the truth of the gospel God handed them over to an additional condemnation described in verse 11. It is not they were additionally damned, but additionally were condemned. God gave them over unto another lie because they rejected the truth exposed to them in verse 10.

Well, it doesn't say that they may be "additionally damned" but rather just damned. However, I do agree with you that it is because they rejected the truth exposed to them, I think we might be making some progress here! raying:

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, it doesn't say that they may be "additionally damned" but rather just damned. However, I do agree with you that it is because they rejected the truth exposed to them, I think we might be making some progress here! raying:

progress is always a good thing:godisgood:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

steave



The non elect are born damned. Their unbelief merely gives evidence that they are damned. Jesus plainly says that those who believe not [the Gospel] shall be damned Mk 16:16

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In other words, unbelief, is the evidence of being damned, of being in a Lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The non elect are born damned? That is a hideous belief. But it fits right in with Islam.

 

[The Biblicist]

The non elect are born damned? That is a hideous belief. But it fits right in with Islam.

Think about it. Are not all men born in unbelief? Are human being naturally born into the world as a believer with no need of regeneration or conversion?

Jesus said he did not come into the world to condemn man because man was already condemned and the condemnation is due to unbelief. Hence, man kind is born condemned as they are born in unbelief which is the grounds for condemnation.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Think about it. Are not all men born in unbelief? Are human being naturally born into the world as a believer with no need of regeneration or conversion?

Jesus said he did not come into the world to condemn man because man was already condemned and the condemnation is due to unbelief. Hence, man kind is born condemned as they are born in unbelief which is the grounds for condemnation.

What you are saying is different from saying that the non-elect are born damned.

 

[The Biblicist]

What you are saying is different from saying that the non-elect are born damned.

SBM has a warped hyper-calvinistic point of view. All men are born condemned under sin - the sin of unbelief at minimum and no man is eternally damned until they die without Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, I never said God must double damn them, i said the "T" in TULIP would have to conclude that these needed double damnation. This is obvious.



There is no need to wrestle with the scriptures, just believe the simple truth!

Oh boy...

Talk of double talk. Quit adding words to me that I didn't say or as if I've misrepresented you, OK?

Thanks.

Here's what you said and where I use 'must' as synonymous enough:

Why does God need to send a delusion to damn those who are already damned-Totally Depraved?

Seriously your whole entire problem is with what is happening in the text, with what God is doing, and somehow without rationalization nor reason on your part you blame this on Calvinism???

You're the one who brough up double damned, not me. You implied it in the text right off the bat then continued this diatribe, and make attempts to lay this charge on others, specifically me. Your accusation is untrue and unnecessary.

Nothing you've said has established that the T in Tulip concludes these needed double damnation, again, you brought that up and nothing in total depravity suggests this. It's all based on what you see in the text and have added to it.

See? :wavey: :laugh:

Wresting Scripture? Where? You really should apologize here as none of this happened from my side. Quit pretending. I provided you Scripture, and there was no wresting of it whatsoever, yet you bring in another false accusation.

Is this how you play steaver?

The thing that is obvious is that you've eisegeted Scripture to come up with an illogical fallacy, blaming calvinists and tiotal depravity as being Gods hand in sending strong delusion to those who are lost. That's just what the Scriptures happen to say, dragging total depravity through the mud has NOTHING to do with double damnation whatsoever, and your conclusions and illogical arrival at such a misnomer is bewildering to say the least.

Talk about twitsing and wresting and adding to things, as unfortunately it perfectly describes what you're doing in this thread. Why not put an end to your twisting and turning and attempts to make total depravity something it isn't, something it doesn't say nor teach, and making as if others came up with 'double damnation' OK?

You've brought it up, now you're trying to clean up your mess and blame it all on others. Wow. :wavey: :thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

You're squirming and not facing the facts here and you know it. Don't deceive yourself so readily steaver, the answers are there for you to see in Scripture as several have given you. Sometimes we have to humble ourselves and lose our preconceived notions about 'free will' and other things not found in Scripture. I've been there, it's humbling, and I know you see it, but it's about you humbling yourself here to accept these truths.

You quoted this portion (that they're chosen) then talked of how they made a choice, that it's all a choice in a round about way. The text doesn't support your ideology, nor does Scripture (see the references I gave you). In fact, you gave no interpretation, you simply underlined and bolded portions that did not reinforce one thing you attempted to convey, and the only thing glaringly obvious are your presuppositions.

The fact in the passage which you yet avoid is that it is God and God alone who chooses, not man as you are making implication. Thus your interpretation and point are incorrect.

Please look at the passages I've given you, they also reveal this truth that it is God who chooses. It is also true that it is God who gifts faith to believe to His sheep.

To your question. Why does God do this (send strong delusion)?

Here's the answer, hope you're ready: Because God is exercising justice on one group and He is exercising grace upon the others He has chosen.Do you have a problem with God here steaver, as you've mentioned (as though you're startled) about them being 'double-damned'?

These are hard truths for some to accept, humbling, and facts which glorify God and cause us to stand in awe of Him.

Bible Bingo!...

The Lord is confirming for the final time their hardness of hearts towards jesus and his message, as they willingly would rather follow the false Christ, so God allows them to be hardened off in order to be getting their 'free will!"

NNE that is given over to the "deluding spirit" by God will even want to freely come to Christ, God is granting them the ultimate desires of their hearts here!

Think that our brother is having problems reconcilling God free will and ours...

Its goes away when one accepts the Biblical truth that the Lord ONLY is Sovereign in the sense that He can freely and always exercise His Will, we are sinners, and as such, cannot!

 

[steaver]

Seriously your whole entire problem is with what is happening in the text, with what God is doing, and somehow without rationalization nor reason on your part you blame this on Calvinism???

You're the one who brough up double damned, not me. You implied it in the text right off the bat then continued this diatribe, and make attempts to lay this charge on others, specifically me. Your accusation is untrue and unnecessary.

I have absolutely no problem with what God is doing in the text which is giving those who, after hearing the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, has rejected it. Where the issue lies is whether or not these folks were able to choose the glorious gospel or if the doctrine of "T" forbade them.

Now if these folks had no other choice than to reject it because of "T" then what would be silly is God sending them a delusion so they would be damned since the doctrine of "T" already has them damned, thus, they are getting damned twice according to the position of "T". And this passage has nothing to do with them being "more damned" and the text makes this perfectly clear.

So the passage does not teach double damnation, it is the belief in "T" that would cause this double damnation to be.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have absolutely no problem with what God is doing in the text which is giving those who, after hearing the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, has rejected it. Where the issue lies is whether or not these folks were able to choose the glorious gospel or if the doctrine of "T" forbade them.

Now if these folks had no other choice than to reject it because of "T" then what would be silly is God sending them a delusion so they would be damned since the doctrine of "T" already has them damned, thus, they are getting damned twice according to the position of "T". And this passage has nothing to do with them being "more damned" and the text makes this perfectly clear.

So the passage does not teach double damnation, it is the belief in "T" that would cause this double damnation to be.

They are already damned, and such is also the state of the elect until they come to the knowledge of the truth, which they most certainly will, 2 Timothy 2:8-10. It is only your illogical fallacy coupled with your eisegetical 'interpretation' that makes it 'double damned'. This is something you've come up with and has nothing to do with Calvinism nor with total depravity. It's a total misnomer on your part, and I am not the only one seeing your problem with what God is doing in this passage.

Not one person can come to God without Gods enabling, gift of faith and gift of repentance, so it's not a free will issue as you thought, instead it is all God.

He saves, He chooses, He knows all and His plan will come to fruition. Many have 'made a choice' and there is no change in their lives and no new creation, and we see the poor results of 'free will choosing' in the church today.

I'll take it you're skipping over your false accusations upon me for a reason. I really don't appreciate your false accusations thrust upon me throughout this thread, nor your misrepresentation of total depravity, nor of the Calvinist brethren. Not one thing in either the text nor of your argument indicts Calvinists whatsoever. You're way off track and your OP is a 'gotcha' that fell flat on its face.

An apology on your part is in order. Not once did I wrest Scripture per your charge. You cannot show one instance where I've wrested Scripture, yet others have shown you your error.

I forgive you, but you should own up to your accusation. It's becoming of those professing Christ.