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Fact or Faked? Women & Divorcees Can Pastor SBC & Some IFB Churches
- Thread starter fortytworc
- Start date
You can't "undo" a mosquito bite.
You can't force a lion from being a carnivore into a herbivore.
You can't change the nature of the wolf from attacking the sheep.
You can't even change the nature of man from evil to good.
This earth is cursed with thorns and thistles and will be that way til Jesus comes.
Then come and "uncurse" my land! :laugh::laugh:
Pain out of childbirth!? Tell that to my wife!
Living longer? Have you ever heard about Methusaleh?
Even Jacob lived a long time, and that was after the flood. His 12 children became the 12 tribes of Israel. The amazing thing is, he didn't even marry until he was 75!
God expects us to use our minds. After 6-10 thousand years, one would expect that we would learn a thing or two on this earth.
Not the kingdom that Jesus was specifically referring to. Are you doing his will as it is being done in heaven?
You may disagree, but:
Will you also disagree with Isaiah?
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
--I don't see any of these things taking place today, but they will in the kingdom.
We cannot reverse the curse. Only God can do that, and he has already revealed the time of that reversal in Scripture. He will not lie.
fortytworc
Member
I have not said at any time that people, Christians or not, will be able to make anything as it was before
Adam and Eve sinned. I have tried to point out that as humanity has learned and applied the knowledge over time what has occurred amounts to small steps in the direction of undoing the curse.
Gen.3:16 to the woman He said, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bear sons, and your desire shall be toward your husband, and he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam He said, because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, you shall not eat [of] it! The ground [is] cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you and you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you [are], and to dust you shall return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
In pain you shall bear...I was with my wife through the delivery of 5 children in the late '70s - 1990. I have been present as three of my kids gave birth. I know there is still pain in giving birth. I also have witnessed a very great reduction in the amount, duration and intensity of this pain. This is what amounts to attempts by man to 'undo' the curse.
...The ground [is] cursed...In pain shall you eat of it...It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles...In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread ....Today we have genetically engineered crops, herbicides and pesticides, and air conditioned farm equipment with TV, radios, and computers. The curse is still quite active but mankind has used the accumulated knowledge we have and applied it in ways and areas trying to reverse the curse. My point in all of this is I don't hear anyone saying "We should not reduce labor pains, nor try to kill the weeds and insects, develop better crops, and do away with modern farm equipment. Yet people still insist on making no motions in the direction of trying to regain the relationship Adam and Eve enjoyed before sin.
Adam and Eve sinned. I have tried to point out that as humanity has learned and applied the knowledge over time what has occurred amounts to small steps in the direction of undoing the curse.
Gen.3:16 to the woman He said, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bear sons, and your desire shall be toward your husband, and he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam He said, because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, you shall not eat [of] it! The ground [is] cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you and you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you [are], and to dust you shall return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
In pain you shall bear...I was with my wife through the delivery of 5 children in the late '70s - 1990. I have been present as three of my kids gave birth. I know there is still pain in giving birth. I also have witnessed a very great reduction in the amount, duration and intensity of this pain. This is what amounts to attempts by man to 'undo' the curse.
...The ground [is] cursed...In pain shall you eat of it...It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles...In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread ....Today we have genetically engineered crops, herbicides and pesticides, and air conditioned farm equipment with TV, radios, and computers. The curse is still quite active but mankind has used the accumulated knowledge we have and applied it in ways and areas trying to reverse the curse. My point in all of this is I don't hear anyone saying "We should not reduce labor pains, nor try to kill the weeds and insects, develop better crops, and do away with modern farm equipment. Yet people still insist on making no motions in the direction of trying to regain the relationship Adam and Eve enjoyed before sin.
Ryan.Samples
New Member
A- Which evangelical scholars do you find supporting the position that a woman can serve as the senior elder / pastor of a congregation? I would like the original poster to answer the same question.
B- "Most evangelicals"? Really? Which "evangelicals"? Not me. Or my seminary. Or any of the churches to which I have belonged or attended.
Let's make certain we are using the proper definitions. An evangelical Christian, among other things, holds a high view of Scripture. So, no deep offense if a reader happens to be one, but if you are a member of the PCUSA and advocate women elders, and in the same breath advocate practicing homosexuals (women or men), then I'm going to suggest to you that you aren't evangelical.
"Oh, but I would never ordain a homosexual." Why not, dear reader? "Because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong." Hmm, the Bible also says that man is the head of woman. Surely if we can ignore God's instructions about household and church "hierarchy" then we can also ignore those clearly outdated commandments about sexuality. Either you believe God's word or you don't.
There is only one thing that can undo the curse and that is the Blood of Christ. Man cannot take part in that.
fortytworc
Member
I do not think most evangelicals hold to women can be pastors. Neither do I ignore any
Scripture. Where do people get the notion that if one disagrees it equals anything from "You ignore scripture" to "Heretic!"? I believe I have tried to give clear answers with explanations to almost every question. Whether I am in error or not and may change my mind or not I haven't just said,"That is Wrong!" with no real rebuttal. I do not "advocate practicing homosexuality." I do think more time and energy could be taken from debating about the issue amongst ourselves and used to reach out to them as Jesus did to the outcasts of His day, with truth and love.
Think that the "Evangelical scholars" that he would be citing would be identified as being listed among the "Whos Who: of the modern Evagekical left movement. ones that tend to agree with liberals that we need to reset both the bible and jesus into "contemporary culture"
The result of all of what you said is what most doctors do. In many things no cure can be found. All that they can do is treat the symptoms. There are many syndromes, illnesses, infirmities, etc., for which cures will never be found. But we treat the symptoms. As long as the curse is in place we treat the symptoms. That is very different than "undoing" the curse. God has given us a mind to use, and expects us to use it to discover his laws in science. Technology advances. No matter how much technology advances, a woman will always have pain in bearing a child. That is just a fact of life. We may make birth more comfortable. We may treat symptoms surrounding the curse. But we can't take the curse away.
Fred's Wife
Member
We have eternal redemption right now as a present possession, yet we still "groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body". (Romans 8:23)
Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
fortytworc
Member
I have not said at any time that people, Christians or not, will be able to make anything as it was before Adam and Eve sinned. It seems that I agree with you on this point. I must be doing something that jumbles up on your end what I think I am communicating. I wish I would've realized this about a DAY ago. I really don't like wasting people's time. Sorry 'bout that.
fortytworc
Member
Yes. Thank you, Fred's Wife
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I believe it, in its original context and meaning. Maybe you don't.
http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/i-believe-male-headship
Michael Wrenn
New Member
fortytworc
Member
I can very easily live with this. This calls the men(husbands, pastors, dads, etc.) to be the Servants to the women that Jesus came to be to all.He came to serve, not to be served. Whether women can or cannot function in certain areas becomes almost irrelevant if we were servants to them in every way. Certainly the abuse that the current view automatically invites certain types of men to would be gone. This hasn't changed my view on the function of women in the church. This explanation comes about as close as you can get to approving all being able to function according to gifts, not gender since it is not about hierarchy. Thank you so very much!
fortytworc
Member
Thread topic: Women pastors/deacons.
Another sign of summer...reruns.
Sorry for the rerun. Its my first time around this place.
Hey, even an episode of M*A*S*H is still good after seeing it a dozen times.:thumbs:
ONLY applies IF you hold to cultural mandated just for that time and setting!
Again, ONE verse supporting women can lead as pastor/elders in a church setting!
Michael Wrenn
New Member
You are quite welcome!
It's funny, as I just said in another thread, how some won't accept the original and true meaning of something if it contradicts their biases and presuppositions.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
It is people who oppose women in positions of leadership who are imposing their cultural, patriarchal mandates on women and against the true scriptural meaning of male headship.