Featured Did God Command Murder?

Murder is the unjust taking of a life. Killing in obedience to God is not murder.

 

Amen and amen!

 

By the same token without looking it up I believe God told Saul to kill them all
men. women children and even the animals. I do not consider this to have been murder either, for the wages of sin death, whenever and however it comes. A God prerogative.

It is not for man to do according to his free will. He best do according to the will of God.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

I believe Job understood, it is the Lord that gives and the Lord that takes away.

 

But for Abraham there was no easy assurance.

The LORD clearly specified that the burnt offering was to be Abraham’s son.
And prior to burning an offering, the sacrifice had to be slain/killed/slaughtered… use whatever word you want (in Hebrew or English), it was a murder.

Even if God raised Isaac immediately from the dead (and the immediacy of the raising was certainly not assured), Abraham would have committed the act of murder.

At his trial he could have said, “God told me to do it”.

Imagine the solders that crucified our Lord, were they innocent of the act because Jesus arose three days later.

Rob

 

No, it could not be a call to commit murder as all murder is sin, just like all lies are sin. God does not tempt us to sin so what God called for was not murder.

 

The above.........Is the definition of a circular argument.

 

No. Morally, he did not have any such right, as far as I can tell, you are at this point appealing to the idea, that since Abraham was POLITICALLY, a Government unto himself that he was authorized to whatsoever he wanted.....but, again, my King James Bible tells me that prior to this.....NOAH (Abe's patriarc) was given the moral tenants of earthly government Prior to your proposed usurpor Abraham wherein, God apparently claims:Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. :Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Morally, they were beyond guilty, what they did was a sin, they committed sin, accordng to this line of thought, as long as a soldier is comanded by his earthly superiors to commit any given attrocity, he is absolved from the guilt of such because he was "commanded" to commit it: THAT IS SITUATION ETHICS.... you may be o.k. with that, but, as a former Marine infantry and anti-terrorism man myself, I know the difference, and ,I will have no part of it.

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Abraham, according to the King James Bible I use, believed no such thing, he believed ONLY, the prospect that God might raise his son from the dead, he absolutely did NOT believe, that there would be a sustitutionary sacrifice provided, it is not in the Bible, It is not Scriptural, Abraham did not believe it. Again, allow the Bible to be our Sole Authority of Faith: The Word of our almighty God, once again, states CLEARLY in: Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Abraham believed two things:
1.) He woud offer his son as a ritual sacrifice, kill, and burn him
2.) God would absolutely fulfill his covenant with Abraham and raise him up a seed (from Sarah) from which " all the world would be blessed) Therefore: Abraham's assumption was that God must raise Isaac from the dead. PERIOD

 

I didn't read every post of this thread, but I noticed there wasn't a definition of the term "murder" offered. In the other thread, the example of God commanding Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice (regardless of if one calls it 'murder' or not) was offered to show that God is superior to a set of rules as interpreted by us. And that motive of faithful obedience to God (like when Rahab lied to hide the Israelite spies) is not sinful, but heroic.


Consider this definition of Murder:
Noun: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Verb: Kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

Clearly, it is unlawful for us to offer one of our children up for a sacrifice by killing them. Abraham was willing to break that law in faithful obedience to a direct command of God and because of that God credit him as a righteous man. Abraham life wasn't in submission to a list of rules, he was in submission to a person....God. That is the difference.

 

Double post...

 

So, your argument is at that time and in those circumstances it was lawful for Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice?

If so, does that mean God's laws change depending upon time and circumstances?

If so, why are we disagreeing in the first place regarding Rahab's lie? I mean, if God's rules are subject to change depending upon time, circumstance, motive etc, then you have just proven my point.

 

?
No. We know this, this is not what you asked...

No, this is not what you asked either, you asked what the command was, not God's intent ....words have meaning. Unless I am mistaken....you asked about what God commanded Abraham, and................yet one more time..........God commanded Abraham to:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

 

BINGO!!!!! :applause:thumbsup::thumbsup::love2:
What we hve been striving to convey

 

Posted on Drudge
Father Accused of Trying to Sacrifice His Son [LINK]

Humorously the first comment mentions Abraham

Rob

 

I haven't read this entire thread, but isn't the fact Abraham's actions were not premeditated, and Isaac went along willingly play into it? Sin is all about intent of the heart. It can never be sin to follow a direct, audible command of God, in fact the sin would have been committed by Abraham using some of the very logic and arguments here.

 

Yes, he was absolutely obligated....morally by his predecesor Noah, and through Shem who passed the moral law down to him.....God established....through those patriarchs, the moral law, from which any Legitimate political / governmental law derives it's power....note yet again:
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

From these basic principles: Civil authorities are to derive their power, I would contend that civil authority had its basis here and Abraham would have been subject to those principles......You have now begun appealing to civil law to back up our claims.....and yet it was civil law you refused to break With your refusal to "lie to the authorities" with the source of this debate to begin with....

Depending on the identitiy of Mr. Melchizedek.....(a debatable identity to be sure).. Abraham might have quite reasonably obeyed some of the Civil Authorities extant in the near Middle East as he knew them at the time, hence, his rendering of a tithe to him....after a battle was fought.

 

16 There are six things which Jehovah hateth; Yea, seven which are an abomination unto him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood;
18 A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren. Prov 6

If you're looking for a scriptual definition of 'murder', I say this is it; the shedding of innocent blood.

And I agree with Aaron, if it's the will of God, it isn't murder: