Abraham and "the deeds of the law"

[billwald]

The Scriptures teach that we must endure to the end in order to be saved.

So then a person who has endured for 30 years and then goes goofy because of a mini stroke or whatever goes to Hell?

 

[The Biblicist]

The Scriptures teach that we must endure to the end in order to be saved.

So then a person who has endured for 30 years and then goes goofy because of a mini stroke or whatever goes to Hell?

The context for this statement is PHYSICAL tribulation and salvation of the PHYSICAL life.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and billwald,

I appreciate your replies, but as usual I am a little confused at some aspects of your answer.

You have misunderstood Paul's point. The Mosaic Law is the most complete and detailed WRITTEN revelation of God's Righteousness ever given to man. The "works of the Law" refers to the comprehensive Jewish attempt to conform to that standard of righteousness by everything they think, say and do.

When Paul rejects/repudiates the works of the Law of God as a means for justification before God he is repudiating any and all lessor attempts by man for justification before God by whatever they think, say and do. In rejecting the "works of the Law" Paul is repudiating ANYTHING and EVERYTHING possible that any sinner can think, say or do that might justify him before God as there is no more comprehensive standard of righteousness ever given among men. To fail "the works of the law" is to fail any lessor attempt by "good works" among men for justification before God.

Abraham is set forth as the example of justification by faith. He believed the promise concerning the seed and God accounted that belief as righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6 (KJV): 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This is outside of the works of the law or good works, or as you put it "the works of the law" or "good works", which from what you have written is defined in a different sense which is difficult to follow.

First, you are taking a text out of a context of PHYSICAL tribulation that has nothing to do with SPIRITUAL salvation. The term "saved" does not always refer to spiritual salvation but can refer to the salvation of the PHYSICAL life.

Second, there is no conditional clause in this text. This is an assertion not a condition. There is no "in order to be" in this text. He simply asserts that a person who endures to the end is the person who shall be saved.

What happened to the believers in AD70 is an example for all believers, we must endure and not lose that character of the faithful – love. Those who fail will not be saved.

And I am quite sure they would be quoted out of context again. The Bible does not teach conditional security of the believer. It teaches that true believers endure but they do not endure in saving faith to be true believers.
No it cannot be. There is no conditional security taught in Hebrews 11 or Hebrews 10.
Note carefully what he said - "WE ARE NOT OF THEM who draw back to peridition" as they are FALSE PROFESSORS.
but "WE ARE.....OF THEM that believe to the saving of the soul"

Same as above. The trials of life need to be endured. We need to remain faithful under trial. If we start to lose faith and love then we will end up in perdition. Paul was including his hearers, but they needed to respond in faith to all that he taught in Hebrews and not drift away from the faith when under severe trial.

The pivotal verse by Paul in regard to this matter of justification by works is Romans 3:27 where Paul uses the term "law" to describe both "works" and "faith" as contrasting principles in regard to justification.
The "law of works" is set in direct contrast to the "law...of faith" as opposing PRINCIPLES in regard to justification.
Paul's design by the common description of "law" to both "the works of the law" and "faith" is that they are irreconcilably opposed to each other by what they are by nature. Paul tells us this clearly in Galatians 3:12 when speaking of the "works of the law" he says "the law is NOT OF FAITH." He makes this same contrast in Romans 4:4 where he denies that "works" can be "of grace" whereas justificaton is "of faith" so that it may be "by grace" (Rom. 4:16). This is the complete incompatibility expressed in Romans 11:6 and the context of every single one of these texts of contrast between works and faith is that aspect of salvation called justification or aspects which are outside the subjective experience of the believer.

Not sure if I agree with all of this. Yes I believe in justification by faith not works of law.

The Scriptures teach that we must endure to the end in order to be saved.

So then a person who has endured for 30 years and then goes goofy because of a mini stroke or whatever goes to Hell?

To argue from a possible exception is not to answer the general rule. We must endure under trail and not lose our faith and love.

The context for this statement is PHYSICAL tribulation and salvation of the PHYSICAL life.

I disagree. You cannot separate these, especially as this was the subject of warning and encouragement by Jesus and the letter to the Hebrews. We either listen and heed the Word, or reject it when thoroughly presented in this manner.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[savedbymercy]

trevor

Abraham is set forth as the example of justification by faith. He believed the promise concerning the seed and God accounted that belief as righteousness.

So God did not count Christ as Abraham"s Righteousness ?

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist and billwald,

I appreciate your replies, but as usual I am a little confused at some aspects of your answer.
Abraham is set forth as the example of justification by faith. He believed the promise concerning the seed and God accounted that belief as righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6 (KJV): 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This is outside of the works of the law or good works, or as you put it "the works of the law" or "good works", which from what you have written is defined in a different sense which is difficult to follow.

You are proving my point. Abraham was 430 years BEFORE the law of Moses and thus the "works" Paul denied he was justified by had to his own "GOOD WORKS" in response to the law written on his conscience. The "works of the Law" or Mosaic law are what God revealed and defined to Israel to be "GOOD WORKS" in the most comprehensive manner. Whether it is "good works" as defined by and in response to the limited revelation of conscience or it is "good works" defined by and in response to the greater revelation of the law of Moses does not justify a person. However, in denying the works of the law of Moses justifies a person (Rom. 3:28; 4:12-15) denies any lessor revelation and definition of good works justifies a person.

What happened to the believers in AD70 is an example for all believers, we must endure and not lose that character of the faithful – love. Those who fail will not be saved.

They fled to Petra and their PHYSICAL LIFE was saved. You may not like it but it is their PHYSICAL Life that is in view in regard to PHYSICAL tribulations in the Olivet discourse NOT THEIR SPIRITUAL LIFE!

Same as above. The trials of life need to be endured. We need to remain faithful under trial. If we start to lose faith and love then we will end up in perdition. Paul was including his hearers, but they needed to respond in faith to all that he taught in Hebrews and not drift away from the faith when under severe trial.

Hebrews repudiates your doctrine of conditional security. The writer of Hebrews says "WE ARE NOT OF THEM" but you say we are! I will believe the writer of Hebrews.

To argue from a possible exception is not to answer the general rule. We must endure under trail and not lose our faith and love.

There is no general rule of conditional security established in scripture. Scripture repudiates your interpretation of conditional security of true believers (Jn. 5:24; 10:28-30; 1 Jn. 2:19; Heb. 10:39).

Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Jn. 2:19: "They went out FROM US because THEY WERE NOT OF US; for if they had been OF US, they would NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US; but they went out that it MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST they they were not all OF US."

The context is those who turn against Christ - antichrists!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings savedbymercy,

trevor
So God did not count Christ as Abraham"s Righteousness ?

I do not know why you seem to object to Genesis 15:6 and Paul’s clear statement that Abraham’s faith was counted for righteousness. Paul here also includes all those of like precious faith:
Romans 4:3-5 (KJV): 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Perhaps the following will satisfy you, showing that God’s righteousness is centred in the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is given by God’s grace to the believer of the gospel:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3:25-26 (KJV): 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

You are proving my point. Abraham was 430 years BEFORE the law of Moses and thus the "works" Paul denied he was justified by had to his own "GOOD WORKS" in response to the law written on his conscience. The "works of the Law" or Mosaic law are what God revealed and defined to Israel to be "GOOD WORKS" in the most comprehensive manner. Whether it is "good works" as defined by and in response to the limited revelation of conscience or it is "good works" defined by and in response to the greater revelation of the law of Moses does not justify a person. However, in denying the works of the law of Moses justifies a person (Rom. 3:28; 4:12-15) denies any lessor revelation and definition of good works justifies a person.

I still consider that partly from what you say above, and from your earlier posts, that you really disconnect the teaching of James about justification in James 2 from the teaching of Paul in Romans 4. I consider that these are one and the same process.

They fled to Petra and their PHYSICAL LIFE was saved. You may not like it but it is their PHYSICAL Life that is in view in regard to PHYSICAL tribulations in the Olivet discourse NOT THEIR SPIRITUAL LIFE!

The whole book of Hebrews was written to believing Jews as the crisis of AD70 was fast approaching. The hearers were in danger of forsaking Jesus and uniting with Judaism in defense of Jerusalem. To forsake Jesus by staying in Jerusalem would have been forsaking their true spiritual life. We have no record of how many held fast to Jesus in these trials, and how many threw in their lot with Judaism and how many others simply failed through the difficult circumstances. But it depended on whether they listened to the admonition and warnings of Jesus and Paul. The events of AD70 and its effect upon the Jewish believers is another example of salvation and justification by faith, not only in initial belief and salvation from past sins, but an ongoing way of life. This necessary way of life is the pattern of Hebrews 11 “By faith Abel offered” and so the pattern of the each believer mentioned, “By faith xxx (acted in accordance with their faith)”. One of Paul’s final appeals is the following, calling for action based upon what he had taught them, which they had to espouse in faith:
Hebrews 13:13-14 (KJV): 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Hebrews repudiates your doctrine of conditional security. The writer of Hebrews says "WE ARE NOT OF THEM" but you say we are! I will believe the writer of Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:35-39 (KJV): 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
I read the above as conditional. Notice also Habakkuk 2:4 is quoted in v38 above and this speaks of justification by faith, and also that this faith and justification will result in eternal life. This statement concerning justification is an introduction to Hebrews 11 which speaks of what the faithful did and is teaching that the Hebrews must follow the examples of the faithful, that is those that acted in accordance with their faith. Faith and correct action, a faith that works by love, comes by hearing the word of God Romans 10:17, Galatians 5:6. I do not accept OSAS.

There is no general rule of conditional security established in scripture. Scripture repudiates your interpretation of conditional security of true believers (Jn. 5:24; 10:28-30; 1 Jn. 2:19; Heb. 10:39).
Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Jn. 2:19: "They went out FROM US because THEY WERE NOT OF US; for if they had been OF US, they would NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US; but they went out that it MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST they they were not all OF US."
The context is those who turn against Christ - antichrists!

John 5:24, 10:28-30 speak of the greater power of Christ against external adversaries, on behalf of the believers who remain steadfast. This does not preclude an individual falling away. I would not directly connect those of Hebrews 10:39 with those of 1 John 2:19. Those in John’s times actively opposed the teachings of the Apostle John and the faithful, having espoused what appears to be a mix of Judaism and Greek philosophy. This falling away was part of the development of the false church, the antichrist system, with its many false doctrines such as immortal souls, heaven going and trinity. Those in Hebrews more likely generally failed, through weakness or espousal of Judaism, and many would have been engulfed in the overthrow of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I still consider that partly from what you say above, and from your earlier posts, that you really disconnect the teaching of James about justification in James 2 from the teaching of Paul in Romans 4. I consider that these are one and the same process.

The differences between Paul in Romans 3:24-5:2 and James 2:12-32 are drastic.

James is looking at justification from a POST CONVERSIONAL PROFESSION point of view ("if a man say") and an observational point of view ("Shew me.....I will shew you") with a context of drastic contrast ("faith without works") not merely few works but NO WORKS observed and thus from a very PRAGMATIC and a HORIZONTAL DEMONTRATIONAL approach.

In contrast, Paul is dealing with justification "before God" not man, not from a profession or demonstratable point of view but strictly from the systematic theological point of view. Neither is he looking at justification from a post-conversional point of view but distinct and separate from regeneration in Romans 3:24-5:21. It is in Romans 6-8 that he considers the Post-conversional view point and justification with regenerative life where works are included.

These are easy and simple differences that stand out in stark contrast to each other. However, you have an axe to grind and position to defend and so they will be not only ignored but rejected by you. Good works in the life of the believer do not originate from justification by faith but from regeneration wherein a person is "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10. That is the post-coversional observational point of view that Paul shares with James. In pragmatic terms justification and regeneration are inseparable but yet distinct but your type of theology is incapable of making that distinction.

The whole book of Hebrews was written to believing Jews as the crisis of AD70 was fast approaching. The hearers were in danger of forsaking Jesus and uniting with Judaism in defense of Jerusalem. To forsake Jesus by staying in Jerusalem would have been forsaking their true spiritual life. We have no record of how many held fast to Jesus in these trials, and how many threw in their lot with Judaism and how many others simply failed through the difficult circumstances. But it depended on whether they listened to the admonition and warnings of Jesus and Paul. The events of AD70 and its effect upon the Jewish believers is another example of salvation and justification by faith, not only in initial belief and salvation from past sins, but an ongoing way of life. This necessary way of life is the pattern of Hebrews 11 “By faith Abel offered” and so the pattern of the each believer mentioned, “By faith xxx (acted in accordance with their faith)”. One of Paul’s final appeals is the following, calling for action based upon what he had taught them, which they had to espouse in faith:
Hebrews 13:13-14 (KJV): 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews 10:35-39 (KJV): 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You fail to grasp, understand that Profession does not mean Possession and that the New Testament from beginning to end deals with this distinction, and false professions do not endure because they have nothing supernatural internally, nothing authored by Christ and hence, nothing Christ finishes (Heb. 12:2). As long as you fail to understand there is that class of falsep professor which the true professor is not "of them" but rather is "of them that believe to the saving of the soul" you will never properly understand the scriptues much less the book of Hebrews.

I read the above as conditional.

Of course you do, because your theological bias demandsthat. 1 Jn.2:19 is not a condition but an assertion of distinction betwee the haves and have nots and so is Hebrews 10:39. Anyone capable of reading English without a bias can see two distinct groups of professed Christians being characterized (1) we are not "of them" (2) but we are "of them."

Notice also Habakkuk 2:4 is quoted in v38 above and this speaks of justification by faith, and also that this faith and justification will result in eternal life. This statement concerning justification is an introduction to Hebrews 11 which speaks of what the faithful did and is teaching that the Hebrews must follow the examples of the faithful, that is those that acted in accordance with their faith. Faith and correct action, a faith that works by love, comes by hearing the word of God Romans 10:17, Galatians 5:6. I do not accept OSAS.

Your loss. The phrase "the just shall live by faith" is greatly distorted by your side of the aisle. "The Just" should be read and understood to mean "the Justified ones." The words "shall live" do not refer to the daily life but to the life obtained by justification or positional/legal eternal life - and that life is obtained "by faith" alone without works.

This interpretation can easily be seen as true when you look at the other contexts Paul uses it (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11).

John 5:24, 10:28-30 speak of the greater power of Christ against external adversaries, on behalf of the believers who remain steadfast.

Are you delusional???? They speak of no such thing. John 5:24 asserts three unconditional facts. The one believing is in possesson of eternal life right now because they have already past from death to life - perfect tense completed action that continues completed - and such are in no danger in the future of coming into judgement/condemnation. No conditional clauses, no conditions whatsoever.

The same is true of John 10:28-30 - These are matter of fact ASSERTIONS without one conditinal clause. He is not telling how one becomes and stays a sheep but he is declaring what IS a sheep. John 10:26 declares that those he is addressing could not believe in him BECAUSE they are not his sheep but you surely do not believe that do you?

This does not preclude an individual falling away. I would not directly connect those of Hebrews 10:39 with those of 1 John 2:19. Those in John’s times actively opposed the teachings of the Apostle John and the faithful, having espoused what appears to be a mix of Judaism and Greek philosophy. This falling away was part of the development of the false church, the antichrist system, with its many false doctrines such as immortal souls, heaven going and trinity. Those in Hebrews more likely generally failed, through weakness or espousal of Judaism, and many would have been engulfed in the overthrow of Jerusalem.

It does not matter what is cause to turn those who never have been born again against Christ. It could be perscution, philosophy, false religions, etc. Both Paul and John speak "of them" that true Christians are not part and equally deny that these false Christians were never part "of them" who are born again. No one can see the internal nature of another human but there are things "that accompany salvation" that distinguish between the two (Heb. 6:9).

You do not understand or believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You teach another god
You are being led by another spirit
And until the Lord reveals Himself to you, you will go on in your false religion.

 

[Yeshua1]

what is the basis of God justification of yourself?

How does God save any one?

By works of rightousness that we have done, or by the Cross of Christ, accessed thru by faith ALONE?

 

[The Biblicist]

what is the basis of God justification of yourself?

How does God save any one?

By works of rightousness that we have done, or by the Cross of Christ, accessed thru by faith ALONE?

The problem is that Trevor does not even know or worship the God revealed in the Bible and so he is going to reject the one and only gospel revealed in the Bible - and he does. The two go together. It is impossible to believe in the true gospel while rejecting the true God of the Bible (Jn. 17:2-3). If he denies Who the true God is, he will deny who the true Jesus is and therefore it is impossible to have eternal life (Jn. 17:3). To know Christ correctly is to know God correctly and Trevor knows neither correctly.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,

The differences between Paul in Romans 3:24-5:2 and James 2:12-32 are drastic.
You do not understand or believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You teach another god
You are being led by another spirit
And until the Lord reveals Himself to you, you will go on in your false religion.

I have also read your latest comments in response to Yeshua1. I bought a book at a sale on Tuesday and I was interested in his comments on what represents Christianity and what he considers are cults. He defines what he considers “the three branches of Christendom – Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant”, and that “there is a general agreement among them as to the essentials of the faith.” He then states that those who hold some of the beliefs I cherish as belonging to a cult. I found it interesting that this particular Protestant felt comfortable with the Church of Rome, a system that I believe is the antichrist system. The development of the Roman Catholic Church is depicted in Daniel 7. It is sad that modern Protestant Churches have lost their “protest” and are gradually drifting back into the “mother church”.

what is the basis of God justification of yourself?
How does God save any one?
By works of rightousness that we have done, or by the Cross of Christ, accessed thru by faith ALONE?

The expression “faith ALONE” is attributed to Luther who exposed the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, especially with their indulgences. Luther did not understand James 2, and he called the epistle of James, “an epistle of straw”. The Biblicist attempts to reconcile Luther type theology with James’s epistle as summarised in his post above, but I do not know whether all would agree with him, and whether Luther would endorse this explanation. In my opinion he does not understand the true Scriptural doctrine of justification by faith and most probably your echo of “faith ALONE” is also deficient.

I believe in justification by faith in the gospel of the things of the kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ. This faith leads to baptism and a life of sanctification by means of the Word of God affectionately believed and espoused, and a patient and earnest waiting for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth for the 1000 years.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

I remind you also of what James says concerning Abraham, and note he is quoting the important passage in Genesis 15:6. Note also James rejects the expression “faith ALONE” by saying “not by faith only”:
James 2:21-24 (KJV): 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

NONE are, or even can be saved by doing ANY works of the Law, as NONE of that will remove our original sin debt owed to God!

As the BASIS of any getting justified is by death of Chreist, and faith placed in him will have God fully and completely justify/save the sinner, immediatly giving him new nature AND the presense of the Holy Spirit!

Good works follow all of that, as we in christ shall seek to do them in order to please the Lord!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Yeshua1,

NONE are, or even can be saved by doing ANY works of the Law, as NONE of that will remove our original sin debt owed to God!
As the BASIS of any getting justified is by death of Chreist, and faith placed in him will have God fully and completely justify/save the sinner, immediatly giving him new nature AND the presense of the Holy Spirit!
Good works follow all of that, as we in christ shall seek to do them in order to please the Lord!

I agree that none can be saved by doing the works of the Law. Salvation is by faith and this is the same as saying justification is by faith. This is not faith only in the death of Jesus, but belief of the gospel of the kingdom and the name, in all its fullness, simplicity and beauty Acts 8:5,12.

I do not agree that a believer receives a new nature. I also believe that today we only receive the Holy Spirit in the sense that we absorb the product of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God 2 Timothy 3:15-17. The expression “good works” could be misunderstood. What is required is works of faith. Hebrews and James give the example of Abraham offering up Isaac. This was a work of faith. Abraham believed in the promises concerning the seed, and he believed in the resurrection. He trusted that what God had promised He would be able and willing to perform. This motivated Abraham, and the Scriptures record that Abraham was justified by this faith, that is this work of faith.

Sanctification comes through faith, an affectionate belief of the gospel of the kingdom and the name Acts 8:5,12, Acts 3.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,
I have also read your latest comments in response to Yeshua1. I bought a book at a sale on Tuesday and I was interested in his comments on what represents Christianity and what he considers are cults. He defines what he considers “the three branches of Christendom – Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant”, and that “there is a general agreement among them as to the essentials of the faith.” He then states that those who hold some of the beliefs I cherish as belonging to a cult. I found it interesting that this particular Protestant felt comfortable with the Church of Rome, a system that I believe is the antichrist system. The development of the Roman Catholic Church is depicted in Daniel 7. It is sad that modern Protestant Churches have lost their “protest” and are gradually drifting back into the “mother church”.

First, historical Baptists are not associated in their origin or doctrine with any of these three so-called branches.

Second, we define “orthodoxy” to include what is essential to salvation and service and may be summarized in principle as follows:

1. Every teaching and practice the Scriptures demand to be non-negotiable.

2. Every teaching and practice essential to distinguish Christianity as found in the New Testament from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity.

3. Every teaching and practice essential to preserve the above two principles.

The expression “faith ALONE” is attributed to Luther who exposed the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, especially with their indulgences. Luther did not understand James 2, and he called the epistle of James, “an epistle of straw”. The Biblicist attempts to reconcile Luther type theology with James’s epistle as summarised in his post above, but I do not know whether all would agree with him, and whether Luther would endorse this explanation. In my opinion he does not understand the true Scriptural doctrine of justification by faith and most probably your echo of “faith ALONE” is also deficient.

I believe in justification by faith in the gospel of the things of the kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ. This faith leads to baptism and a life of sanctification by means of the Word of God affectionately believed and espoused, and a patient and earnest waiting for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

The gospel is INCLUDED within the “things of the kingdom” but it is a huge theological error to make the “gospel of the kingdom” synonymous with “the things of the kingdom” as “the things of the kingdom” cover a much broader area than the mere gospel of the kingdom.

The “gospel of the Kingdom” refers to the kingdom first in the Person of the King requires submission repentance and faith in his redemptive work. This is what John the Baptist defined the “gospel of the kingdom” in Mark 1:2-4:

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Baptism was for those who received his message of submission to the coming kingdom by repentance and faith.

This entailed gospel conversion/new birth apart from which it is impossible to “see” or “to enter” the kingdom of God as a spiritual sphere here and now or as the coming physical sphere at His coming as the King of kings and Lord of lord’s at the end of this age to set up his kingdom on earth.

I remind you also of what James says concerning Abraham, and note he is quoting the important passage in Genesis 15:6. Note also James rejects the expression “faith ALONE” by saying “not by faith only”:
James 2:21-24 (KJV): 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Here you make the very same mistake that Rome makes and you join in with Rome by failing to distinguish between justification and sanctification. It is true that PRAGMATICALLY from the perspective of a person who by profession has been accepted as “one of you” that justification and sanctification are inseparable within such a person and therefore “good works” are equally inseparable from such a professed justified person (because there can be no justification without regeneration) and this is precisely how James is approaching the issue in James 2.

What you also fail to see is that James goes beyond the initial point when Abraham was said to have been imputed righteousness by faith unto Genesis 22 in order to demonstrate his point that Abraham was not justified "by faith only."

Both in Genesis 15:5-6 and Genesis 12:1-3 Moses uses the perfect tense to demonstrate that Abraham was initially justified in Genesis 11 while still in Ur of the Chaldees. For example Geneis 12:1-3 "had said" refers to Genesis 11 according to Galatians 3:8 while still in Ur before he departed to Haran with his father. Genesis 15:6 also points back to that initial time as the point of justification by faith in the gospel. The additional promises were but expansive of the same initial promise just as his faith in those expanded promises was evident of his initial faith in the same initial promise. In other words he kept on believing what God initial promised as God provided more expansive details of the very same promise. This is like 1 John 5:13. Initial faith in the gospel obtains eternal life however what John additionally furnished his readers strengthened that initial faith.

James point is that initial justification by faith in Ur of the Chaldees was a continuing faith in the initial gospel promise and as it continued it was made evidential not merely by profession but by the attendance of "good works" because there can be no justification where there is not regeneration manfiested by "good works."

James is speaking of OBSERVATIONAL justification by works! He makes this clear when he says "a man may say.....SHEW ME.......SHEW you.......Do you SEE HOW..."

However, it is one thing to be justified by works OBSERVATIONALLY and PRAGMATICALLY but that does not mean that "good works" originate with justification or that justification is by works "before God."

Paul is not dealing with justification on a horizontal level of observation but on a vertical level before God.

Paul is not dealing with justification from a pragmatic perpsective where justification is inseparable from regeneation/sanctification (as James is) but from a THEOLOGICAL perspective where justification is DISTINCT and SEPARATE from regeneration/sanctification.

In contrast YOU are dealing with both James and Paul from the Roman Catholic perspective that makes no theological distinction between justification/regeneration/sanctification.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

First, historical Baptists are not associated in their origin or doctrine with any of these three so-called branches.
Second, we define “orthodoxy” to include what is essential to salvation and service and may be summarized in principle as follows:
1. Every teaching and practice the Scriptures demand to be non-negotiable.
2. Every teaching and practice essential to distinguish Christianity as found in the New Testament from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity.
3. Every teaching and practice essential to preserve the above two principles.

I am encouraged by this response and definition. In other words we should seek to espouse Apostolic teachings and practice, and seek to exclude all else.

The gospel is INCLUDED within the “things of the kingdom” but it is a huge theological error to make the “gospel of the kingdom” synonymous with “the things of the kingdom” as “the things of the kingdom” cover a much broader area than the mere gospel of the kingdom.
The “gospel of the Kingdom” refers to the kingdom first in the Person of the King requires submission repentance and faith in his redemptive work. This is what John the Baptist defined the “gospel of the kingdom” in Mark 1:2-4: 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Baptism was for those who received his message of submission to the coming kingdom by repentance and faith.
This entailed gospel conversion/new birth apart from which it is impossible to “see” or “to enter” the kingdom of God as a spiritual sphere here and now or as the coming physical sphere at His coming as the King of kings and Lord of lord’s at the end of this age to set up his kingdom on earth.

I do not understand the distinction you make between the “gospel of the kingdom” and “the things of the kingdom”. The gospel preached after Jesus’ death and resurrection included two main elements, the things of the name and the things of the kingdom.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
In my opinion most Protestants ignore teaching the things of the kingdom, and even if an attempt is made there are many wrong ideas which do not agree with the Scriptures. Similarly in my opinion Protestants teach many wrong aspects concerning the things of the name.

Here you make the very same mistake that Rome makes and you join in with Rome by failing to distinguish between justification and sanctification.
……
In contrast YOU are dealing with both James and Paul from the Roman Catholic perspective that makes no theological distinction between justification/regeneration/sanctification.

Too long to quote in full, but I cannot accept or understand your distinctions. I believe that Abraham was justified by faith only at Genesis 15:6, not before. At least this was the first Divine declaration concerning Abraham’s justification. His offering up of Isaac is a development of that same faith. This offering was not “good works”, because outside of faith this would have been murder of his son. Justification, regeneration and sanctification come from faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,
I do not understand the distinction you make between the “gospel of the kingdom” and “the things of the kingdom”. The gospel preached after Jesus’ death and resurrection included two main elements, the things of the name and the things of the kingdom.

The difference is ENTRANCE into the kingdom versus SERVICE after entrance into the kingdom. For example, look at Matthew 5:19. Here are two servants already in the kingdom who are distinguished by their obedience; one is GREATER in the kingdom than the other. However, Matthew 5:20 speaks of ENTRANCE into the kingdom. The gospel has to do with ENTRANCE into the kingdom which then provides you opportunity for SERVICE in the kingdom.

Believing in "his name" is parallel to what Peter said in Acts 10:43 "whosoever believeth upon his name" which refers to ENTRANCE into the kingdom but the "things of the kingdom" are for those only who have already ENTERED into the kingdom.

Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again in order to ENTER and SEE the kingdom but after entrance into the kingdom they SERVE God in regard to the "things" of the Kingdom.

Too long to quote in full, but I cannot accept or understand your distinctions. I believe that Abraham was justified by faith only at Genesis 15:6, not before.....His offering up of Isaac is a development of that same faith.

His beleif in Gen. 15:6 is a development of that same faith in the same promise previously given to him in the Ur of the Chaldees.

1. Galatians 3:8 defines the initial promise given Abrahm identified as the gospel he first believed and this is repeated in Genesis 12:1-3.

Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gen. 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

NOTE: "had said" means he was in Ur of the Chaldees when this was said to him because if not then he could not have been told to "get thee out of THY COUNTRY" - His birth country was Ur of the Chaldees.

2. Genesis 12:1-3 uses the Perfect tense "had said" referring to the precise point when this gospel was preached to Abraham and where Abraham received it in Genesis 11 while still in Ur of the Chaldees.

Gen. 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.



3. Genesis 15:7 proves that Geneisis 15:4-5 was merely a further development of the same promise first embraced by faith in Genesus 11 and further development of the same previous faith first expressed in Genesis 11 while in the Ur of the Chaldees while in his father's house before he went to Haran.

Gen. 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. [same promise as preached by God in the gospel - Gal. 3:8 in Ur]
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. [same faith further embracing the same promise as preached in the gospel in Ur - Gal. 3:8]
7 ¶ And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.


Abraham was first justified by faith when He believed in the initial gospel promise first preahed to Him by God before he left Ur of the chaldees. It was this initial promise and instruction to leave Ur of the Chaldees that I believe prompted his Father to leave also. The same promise was again presented to him in Genesis 12:1-3 after his father died in Haran which prompted him to further obey and leave Haran to go to Palestine. After entering Palestine this same promise was again given to him in Genesis 15:1-5 and further expanded and Abraham continued to beleive it (Gen. 15:6) as he first did in Ur as Genesis 15:7 clearly infers.

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again The Biblicist,
I am encouraged by this response and definition. In other words we should seek to espouse Apostolic teachings and practice, and seek to exclude all else.
I do not understand the distinction you make between the “gospel of the kingdom” and “the things of the kingdom”. The gospel preached after Jesus’ death and resurrection included two main elements, the things of the name and the things of the kingdom.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
In my opinion most Protestants ignore teaching the things of the kingdom, and even if an attempt is made there are many wrong ideas which do not agree with the Scriptures. Similarly in my opinion Protestants teach many wrong aspects concerning the things of the name.
Too long to quote in full, but I cannot accept or understand your distinctions. I believe that Abraham was justified by faith only at Genesis 15:6, not before. At least this was the first Divine declaration concerning Abraham’s justification. His offering up of Isaac is a development of that same faith. This offering was not “good works”, because outside of faith this would have been murder of his son. Justification, regeneration and sanctification come from faith.Kind regards
Trevor

How do you view those 3 in regards to a christian?

When do they happen, and how?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,

His belief in Gen. 15:6 is a development of that same faith in the same promise previously given to him in the Ur of the Chaldees.
1. Galatians 3:8 defines the initial promise given Abraham identified as the gospel he first believed and this is repeated in Genesis 12:1-3.
Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
…..
Abraham was first justified by faith when He believed in the initial gospel promise first preached to Him by God before he left Ur of the Chaldees.

I agree that the promise “In thee shall all nations be blessed” is given by Paul as a summary of the gospel. Even though Abraham believed this promise and journeyed to Canaan in response, I am not sure if he was justified by faith until Genesis 15:6. Yes I agree that the promise concerning the seed and his response in faith in Genesis 15:6 is an enlargement and development of his faith and response in Genesis 12:3. In our own lives, I consider it necessary to understand the full gospel before we are ready to respond in a faith that is acceptable, and that God will by grace consider that faith as righteousness.

How do you view those 3 in regards to a christian?
When do they happen, and how?

I am not sure what you are asking. What are the “3” that you are referring to?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,

I agree that the promise “In thee shall all nations be blessed” is given by Paul as a summary of the gospel. Even though Abraham believed this promise and journeyed to Canaan in response, I am not sure if he was justified by faith until Genesis 15:6. Yes I agree that the promise concerning the seed and his response in faith in Genesis 15:6 is an enlargement and development of his faith and response in Genesis 12:3. In our own lives, I consider it necessary to understand the full gospel before we are ready to respond in a faith that is acceptable, and that God will by grace consider that faith as righteousness.


I am not sure what you are asking. What are the “3” that you are referring to?

Kind regards
Trevor

Justification, regeneration and sanctification come from faith.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Yeshua1,

How do you view those 3 in regards to a christian?
When do they happen, and how?

I am not sure what you are asking. What are the “3” that you are referring to?

Justification, regeneration and sanctification come from faith.

True or Biblical faith is a response to when the gospel is preached in its completeness, simplicity, purity and beauty. A wrong teaching creates a wrong response and character. The true gospel creates within the individual repentance and a desire to conform to the ways of God. The initial response is a recognition of sin, humility and a desire to be identified with the sacrifice, the death and resurrection of Christ. This process is putting to death the old ways of the flesh, and allowing the things of the gospel to be a motivating force in a new, resurrected way of life. This way of life leads to sanctification. The whole process is one of faith in response to the gospel. Justification is by faith at the beginning of one’s first acceptance of the gospel, and throughout the whole person’s life. The end in view is the kingdom to be set up on earth, preceded by judgement and forgiveness or blotting out of sin, resulting in a change of nature at the return of Christ Acts 3:19-21.

Perhaps a few quotations, but there are many others that need to be considered to fill in the full picture:
The following is a simple summary of the initial preaching of the gospel and the response of the believers:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Notice that it was simply the word of the gospel that was preached. To preach Christ is defined as things of the kingdom and the name, and they believed these things and were baptised. This is justification by faith and regeneration. They did not at this stage receive the Holy Spirit until some days later, when the Apostles came. Philip did not impart the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit received was the gifts of the Holy Spirit, given in different parts to different members of the believers at Samaria, not for the individual’s regeneration or sanctification, but for the benefit or edification of the assembly (Gk: ecclesia – not church in the sense of a building) at Samaria as a whole.

A good example of sanctification, a response of faith, is the way of life revealed in the Apostle Paul:
Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV): 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The above quotation is a good example of the teaching that Christ’s sacrifice is representative, not substitutionary. We need to be identified with Christ in his way of life, putting to death the flesh, and living by the power of faith in his resurrected life.

Paul in his example and his preaching revealed this crucified life in their midst.
Galatians 3:1 (KJV): O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
It is significant that the quotations above are taken from the Book of Galatians, and this book was written to counteract the Judaiser’s claim that it was necessary to not only believe but also keep the Law of Moses. Paul answer is that the life of faith is what is required. This life starts with faith, and justification, regeneration and sanctification flow from this. The end product is a character well-pleasing to God, resulting in humility, service and praise to God, the Creator. Law-keeping and seeking to do “good works” can generate pride and self-worship.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the great exemplar, and the way of life we are called upon to follow is also revealed in Paul and the other Apostles and disciples, and faithful of old:
1 Corinthians 11:1 (KJV): Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

The above are a few aspects of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ. A correct view of the things of the kingdom are also necessary for faith in the true gospel. The various promise to Eve, Abraham and David are a good starting point, and perhaps a list of a few aspects of the kingdom:
Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor