Pentecostalism

[Michael Wrenn]

The thread on the baptism in the spirit prompted me to begin this thread, and also the thread started by the guy sharing his testimony of the same.

Many years ago, I attended a charismatic church briefly. It changed my life -- but not in a good way; I won't go into that, however.

How do we interpret the experiences of those who claimed to have undergone a spirit baptism subsequent to conversion and spoken in tongues as evidence of same? In reading some histories of the Pentecostal movement, I remember statements of some of the pioneers of the movement saying that they did not try to verify an already-held belief in these doctrines by seeking an experience to confirm that, but that they had the experience first and then sought a scriptural justification and verification of same which they found in Paul's writings.

Now it has been pointed out in other threads just how diverse the teachings of Pentecostals and Charismatics are, but on this point there is mostly unanimity.

So, how do we explain this experience that Pentecostals have had and that they say should be the normative experience for all Christians? I know what I believe, but I want to see what others believe.

Also, there seem to be a lack of NT experiences in contemporary non-pentecostal churches. Jesus said that of the works He did, that His followers would do even greater works. Why then do we not see that? Why do we not see an abundance of supernatural healings, deliverances, and other miraculous events in our churches? Why are not all the gifts of the Spirit in operation -- the ones that are listed in Paul's writings? Why are these things missing and absent in our churches?

There is a lot of phoniness in the Charismatic movement, but, apart from that, I would like us to address the experience that Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have had, and then the lack of operation of all the spiritual gifts in our churches, as well as the lack of miraculous healings and other miracles, signs, and wonders that were present in the NT church. For churches such as the Baptists and many others who are attempting to emulate the NT church, this a serious and relevant issue.

 

[The Biblicist]

The thread on the baptism in the spirit prompted me to begin this thread, and also the thread started by the guy sharing his testimony of the same.

Many years ago, I attended a charismatic church briefly. It changed my life -- but not in a good way; I won't go into that, however.

How do we interpret the experiences of those who claimed to have undergone a spirit baptism subsequent to conversion and spoken in tongues as evidence of same? In reading some histories of the Pentecostal movement, I remember statements of some of the pioneers of the movement saying that they did not try to verify an already-held belief in these doctrines by seeking an experience to confirm that, but that they had the experience first and then sought a scriptural justification and verification of same which they found in Paul's writings.

Now it has been pointed out in other threads just how diverse the teachings of Pentecostals and Charismatics are, but on this point there is mostly unanimity.

So, how do we explain this experience that Pentecostals have had and that they say should be the normative experience for all Christians? I know what I believe, but I want to see what others believe.

Also, there seem to be a lack of NT experiences in contemporary non-pentecostal churches. Jesus said that of the works He did, that His followers would do even greater works. Why then do we not see that? Why do we not see an abundance of supernatural healings, deliverances, and other miraculous events in our churches? Why are not all the gifts of the Spirit in operation -- the ones that are listed in Paul's writings? Why are these things missing and absent in our churches?

There is a lot of phoniness in the Charismatic movement, but, apart from that, I would like us to address the experience that Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have had, and then the lack of operation of all the spiritual gifts in our churches, as well as the lack of miraculous healings and other miracles, signs, and wonders that were present in the NT church. For churches such as the Baptists and many others who are attempting to emulate the NT church, this a serious and relevant issue.

I have challenged any reader on the forum repeatedly to show where any but the apostles performed miracles, signs, wonders, tongues between Acts 2-6.

I have challenged any reader on the forum repeately to show where any but those upon whom the apostles laid hands performed any miracles, signs, wonders and tongues between Acts 6-28.

I have challengged any reader on the forum repeatedly to show how miracles signs and wonders can be "the sign" of the apostles as Paul states clearly in 2 Cor. 12:12IF such were the common property of all believers?

My conclusion is that such things were FOUNDATIONAL and TEMPORARY as was the apostolic office and were used by God to confirm their writings and those who wrote under their supervision as scriptures and when the last apostle died, the scriptures were finished and when the last Christians upon whom the apostles laid hands the miracles, signs and wonders were finished.

 

[Moriah]

Also, there seem to be a lack of NT experiences in contemporary non-pentecostal churches. Jesus said that of the works He did, that His followers would do even greater works. Why then do we not see that? Why do we not see an abundance of supernatural healings, deliverances, and other miraculous events in our churches? Why are not all the gifts of the Spirit in operation -- the ones that are listed in Paul's writings? Why are these things missing and absent in our churches?

The New Testament is of very special times, to say the least. God through Jesus Christ gives salvation to us, and God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will (Hebrew 2:1-4, and Acts 14:3). The gift of tongues is a gift given during the laying of the foundation of the church, and the foundation has been laid (Eph 2:20). Speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews: God has fulfilled the purpose of the sign. Yet many Christians believe their glossolalia is the tongue speaking as in the bible. When people spoke in tongues, they spoke mysteries (1 Corinthians 14:2). The mysteries of the gospel has been given (Ephesians 6:19).

The nowadays tongue speaking is not even used today for unbelievers, as the Bible tells us it is for; instead nowadays tongue speakers use their tongue speaking for themselves and other believers in their church. See 1 Corinthians 14:22.

The tongue speakers of nowadays, they believe they are speaking a prayer language, and that in this type of praying it is somehow deeper and more revealing about themselves to God, and more personal than praying with their native language with words they understand. However, that is not scriptural, and that even goes against the Word of God. Calling the false tongue speaking a "prayer language" is from an error in understanding of the scriptures explaining speaking in tongues when no one is around who understands. It is important to realize that after the believers in the bible had the gift of speaking in tongues for the sign to the Jews...they kept the gift even when the Jews of other languages were not around. Therefore, the tongue speakers spoke only to God when they spoke in tongues they did not understand and when no Jews from other languages were there, because, God, of course, can understand all the earthly languages.

Again, if there were no one of other languages around to understand the tongue speaker, and if the tongue speaker themselves cannot interpret what they say, then they are speaking only to God, and this speaking edified (nurtures) only the tongue speakers themselves. Tongue speaking edifies only the tongue speaker when no understands; they are edified in knowing that God gave them an amazing gift. How edifying it is for oneself just to have a gift such as speaking in tongues that alone is what edifies. Nowadays tongue speakers, while trying to copy cat the real tongue speaking as is in the Bible, they discount completely that if they do not interpret what they say, even when praying in tongues to God only...then their mind is fruitless. Surely, a fruitless mind is not something one should be aiming for in personal prayer times.

Not everyone spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5). Tongue speakers spoke mysteries (1 Cor 14:2); consequently, the mystery of the gospel has been given (Eph 6:19).

People who claim to speak in tongues nowadays also claim that they are speaking the language of angels. Read what Paul states in the following scriptures:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Hebrews 1:14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

The Bible says that angels are ministering spirits to those who will inherit salvation. The people of the earth are those who will inherit salvation. Therefore, the angels need to know all the languages of the people on earth!

So even if the biblical speaking in tongues did not sound like any earthly language, (as many nowadays tongue speakers claim it is not an earthly language), speaking in tongues was still heard and understood as different earthly foreign languages....by the foreigners themselves (see Acts 2:6 and 2:11).

Again, the language angels need to minister to us is with our earthly languages. Therefore, like the foreigners who understood those speaking in tongues, in their native language, we too would need to understand in our language what the angels were saying to us.

Nowadays tongue speakers also falsely use the scripture Romans 8:26. Romans 8:26 says, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.” However, speaking in tongues is "words" and not groans. This scripture is about when all we can do is groan--then the Spirit intercedes for us to God.

The believers in the Bible times who spoke in tongues, they spoke in tongues supernaturally. The believers who supposedly speak in tongues nowadays, they speak gibberish and believe God turns their gibberish into supernatural language, and that is a false doctrine.

 

[ktn4eg]

I wonder if people who claim to have the gift of tongues, if they are called to go to a foreign, non-English-speaking country have to go to a language school to learn that country's native language?

 

[mandym]

The thread on the baptism in the spirit prompted me to begin this thread, and also the thread started by the guy sharing his testimony of the same.

Many years ago, I attended a charismatic church briefly. It changed my life -- but not in a good way; I won't go into that, however.

How do we interpret the experiences of those who claimed to have undergone a spirit baptism subsequent to conversion and spoken in tongues as evidence of same? In reading some histories of the Pentecostal movement, I remember statements of some of the pioneers of the movement saying that they did not try to verify an already-held belief in these doctrines by seeking an experience to confirm that, but that they had the experience first and then sought a scriptural justification and verification of same which they found in Paul's writings.

Now it has been pointed out in other threads just how diverse the teachings of Pentecostals and Charismatics are, but on this point there is mostly unanimity.

So, how do we explain this experience that Pentecostals have had and that they say should be the normative experience for all Christians? I know what I believe, but I want to see what others believe.

Also, there seem to be a lack of NT experiences in contemporary non-pentecostal churches. Jesus said that of the works He did, that His followers would do even greater works. Why then do we not see that? Why do we not see an abundance of supernatural healings, deliverances, and other miraculous events in our churches? Why are not all the gifts of the Spirit in operation -- the ones that are listed in Paul's writings? Why are these things missing and absent in our churches?

There is a lot of phoniness in the Charismatic movement, but, apart from that, I would like us to address the experience that Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have had, and then the lack of operation of all the spiritual gifts in our churches, as well as the lack of miraculous healings and other miracles, signs, and wonders that were present in the NT church. For churches such as the Baptists and many others who are attempting to emulate the NT church, this a serious and relevant issue.

If it doesn't line up with scripture and what we already know about God is has no value regardless of what they claim is their experience.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have challenged any reader on the forum repeatedly to show where any but the apostles performed miracles, signs, wonders, tongues between Acts 2-6.

I have challenged any reader on the forum repeately to show where any but those upon whom the apostles laid hands performed any miracles, signs, wonders and tongues between Acts 6-28.

I have challengged any reader on the forum repeatedly to show how miracles signs and wonders can be "the sign" of the apostles as Paul states clearly in 2 Cor. 12:12IF such were the common property of all believers?

My conclusion is that such things were FOUNDATIONAL and TEMPORARY as was the apostolic office and were used by God to confirm their writings and those who wrote under their supervision as scriptures and when the last apostle died, the scriptures were finished and when the last Christians upon whom the apostles laid hands the miracles, signs and wonders were finished.

I take Jesus at his word when He said His followers would do these things, and I don't believe any of the gifts have ceased; I simply do not hold to the Pentecostal interpretation and practice.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If it doesn't line up with scripture and what we already know about God is has no value regardless of what they claim is their experience.

Since they obviously believe their experiences do line up with scripture, that is not an adequate answer.

 

[Moriah]

Since they obviously believe their experiences do line up with scripture, that is not an adequate answer.

Just because they believe it does, it does not make it so. People can and do prove that they are wrong. They prove it by the scriptures.

 

[The Biblicist]

I take Jesus at his word when He said His followers would do these things, and I don't believe any of the gifts have ceased; I simply do not hold to the Pentecostal interpretation and practice.

Where you are quoting this from refers to it in past tense completed sense!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Just because they believe it does, it does not make it so. People can and do prove that they are wrong. They prove it by the scriptures.

Better to say they try to prove it by their interpretation of the scriptures. The Pentecostals believe that the scriptures prove them right.

 

[Moriah]

Better to say they try to prove it by their interpretation of the scriptures. The Pentecostals believe that the scriptures prove them right.

If they understood the scriptures, then they would see that they were wrong. There was a time I thought I could speak in tongues and interpret what I said. I just believed what man taught about it, it is so common now. It came to me that I never really studied it. After studying it I could see the truth about it.

I am not going to say I do not know for sure what to believe about it, because if I said that then it would not be true. I do know what to believe about speaking in tongues, and I am not afraid to speak up about it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If they understood the scriptures, then they would see that they were wrong. There was a time I thought I could speak in tongues and interpret what I said. I just believed what man taught about it, it is so common now. It came to me that I never really studied it. After studying it I could see the truth about it.

I am not going to say I do not know for sure what to believe about it, because if I said that then it would not be true. I do know what to believe about speaking in tongues, and I am not afraid to speak up about it.

Before this goes further, let me restate my position: I do indeed believe Pentecostals are wrong in their interpretation of the scriptures concerning these experiences, but I won't say that they didn't have the experiences or that they were not from God. I can't make a blanket statement like that. I believe some of the experiences were from God and some were not; this is based on my first-hand observations.

I do believe that the gifts mentioned in Paul's writings are and should be in operation today, but I don't have a Pentecostal interpretation of this. I believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we come to faith, and I believe God gives us spiritual gifts going forward.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do believe that the gifts mentioned in Paul's writings are and should be in operation today, but I don't have a Pentecostal interpretation of this. I believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we come to faith, and I believe God gives us spiritual gifts going forward.

Again, can you find any scripture between Acts 2-6 where anyone but the apostles performed such things?

Again, can you find any scripture between Acts 6-28 where anyone but those upon whom the apostles laid their hands which performed such things?

Again, can you explain why such things are specifically said to be "THE SIGN" of the Apostolic office if they were given to other Christians in general?

Finally, both Mark 16:20 and Hebrews 2:3-4 speak of these things not only in the past tense as fulfilled but in the context of apostles.

So where are your scriptures that teach these things are for today and available for Christians apart from the above scriptural contexts??

 

[Yeshua1]

The thread on the baptism in the spirit prompted me to begin this thread, and also the thread started by the guy sharing his testimony of the same.

Many years ago, I attended a charismatic church briefly. It changed my life -- but not in a good way; I won't go into that, however.

How do we interpret the experiences of those who claimed to have undergone a spirit baptism subsequent to conversion and spoken in tongues as evidence of same? In reading some histories of the Pentecostal movement, I remember statements of some of the pioneers of the movement saying that they did not try to verify an already-held belief in these doctrines by seeking an experience to confirm that, but that they had the experience first and then sought a scriptural justification and verification of same which they found in Paul's writings.

Now it has been pointed out in other threads just how diverse the teachings of Pentecostals and Charismatics are, but on this point there is mostly unanimity.

So, how do we explain this experience that Pentecostals have had and that they say should be the normative experience for all Christians? I know what I believe, but I want to see what others believe.

Also, there seem to be a lack of NT experiences in contemporary non-pentecostal churches. Jesus said that of the works He did, that His followers would do even greater works. Why then do we not see that? Why do we not see an abundance of supernatural healings, deliverances, and other miraculous events in our churches? Why are not all the gifts of the Spirit in operation -- the ones that are listed in Paul's writings? Why are these things missing and absent in our churches?

There is a lot of phoniness in the Charismatic movement, but, apart from that, I would like us to address the experience that Pentecostals and Charismatics claim to have had, and then the lack of operation of all the spiritual gifts in our churches, as well as the lack of miraculous healings and other miracles, signs, and wonders that were present in the NT church. For churches such as the Baptists and many others who are attempting to emulate the NT church, this a serious and relevant issue.

Think first thing have to do is subdivide thir ranks, in the sense that there are 'classical" groups such as Assemblies of God, who are Christians teaching mistaken erroneous views on the Holy spirit, and those in WoF, sons of god, modern day apostles/prophet etc who are heretics in the true sense of the term, as they claim to speak for god, yet deny truths such as nature of God and us, and what the atonement really means!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Again, can you find any scripture between Acts 2-6 where anyone but the apostles performed such things?

Again, can you find any scripture between Acts 6-28 where anyone but those upon whom the apostles laid their hands which performed such things?

Again, can you explain why such things are specifically said to be "THE SIGN" of the Apostolic office if they were given to other Christians in general?

Finally, both Mark 16:20 and Hebrews 2:3-4 speak of these things not only in the past tense as fulfilled but in the context of apostles.

So where are your scriptures that teach these things are for today and available for Christians apart from the above scriptural contexts??

I suppose if I conveniently ignored 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as you have done that I might believe as you do -- but I doubt it.

 

[The Biblicist]

I suppose if I conveniently ignored 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as you have done that I might believe as you do -- but I doubt it.

Who was the apostle that established that congregation? Answer: Paul. How can you prove that the Corinthians did not receive their gifts through apostolic laying on of hands as demonstrated in the entire book of Acts wherein the history of the congregation at Corinth is found???

How do you know that Paul is not speaking of the such gifts in 1 Cor. 12-14within that framework found throughout the book of Acts?

Are you not making an assumption that is nowhere stated or demonstrated through the inspired history of early Christianity as recorded in the book of Acts?

 

[Moriah]

Before this goes further, let me restate my position: I do indeed believe Pentecostals are wrong in their interpretation of the scriptures concerning these experiences, but I won't say that they didn't have the experiences or that they were not from God. I can't make a blanket statement like that. I believe some of the experiences were from God and some were not; this is based on my first-hand observations.

If you do believe Pentecostals are wrong in their interpretation of the scriptures concerning these experiences, then how is it that you do not want to say their experiences were not from God?

I do believe that the gifts mentioned in Paul's writings are and should be in operation today, but I don't have a Pentecostal interpretation of this. I believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we come to faith, and I believe God gives us spiritual gifts going forward.

I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

I believe speaking in tongues, prophecies, and new knowledge have ceased. We know that we cannot add new things to the Bible. We check the scriptures to see if what others teach us is true.

I believe tongues, prophecies, and new knowledge were active during the laying of the foundation. I believe miracles signs and wonders were also during the laying of the foundation that is how God testified to it.

I do want to say though, that when I was a Catholic, I was sick and two Christians knelt down, put their hands on me, while reading something from the Bible, and I was healed instantly. The Bible does not say healing would stop, the Bible does not say God will not ever do miraculous signs and wonders again; however, I do not think God is testifying to the gospel repeatedly as He did when the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone laid the foundation.
God has answered my cries for help to Him. God has intervened in my life to help me. I know God can do anything.

What gifts do you believe God gives us? So, do you think you have a spiritual gift? Are you praying for a certain one?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Who was the apostle that established that congregation? Answer: Paul. How can you prove that the Corinthians did not receive their gifts through apostolic laying on of hands as demonstrated in the entire book of Acts wherein the history of the congregation at Corinth is found???

How do you know that Paul is not speaking of the such gifts in 1 Cor. 12-14within that framework found throughout the book of Acts?

Are you not making an assumption that is nowhere stated or demonstrated through the inspired history of early Christianity as recorded in the book of Acts?

No, I am not.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If you do believe Pentecostals are wrong in their interpretation of the scriptures concerning these experiences, then how is it that you do not want to say their experiences were not from God?

I believe some of them are from God and some aren't. I don't believe you have to be right about something for God to move in your life.

Further, I know non-Pentecostals who have had these experiences, and I know these people are saved.


I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

I believe speaking in tongues, prophecies, and new knowledge have ceased. We know that we cannot add new things to the Bible. We check the scriptures to see if what others teach us is true.

I believe tongues, prophecies, and new knowledge were active during the laying of the foundation. I believe miracles signs and wonders were also during the laying of the foundation that is how God testified to it.

I do want to say though, that when I was a Catholic, I was sick and two Christians knelt down, put their hands on me, while reading something from the Bible, and I was healed instantly. The Bible does not say healing would stop, the Bible does not say God will not ever do miraculous signs and wonders again; however, I do not think God is testifying to the gospel repeatedly as He did when the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone laid the foundation.
God has answered my cries for help to Him. God has intervened in my life to help me. I know God can do anything.

What gifts do you believe God gives us? So, do you think you have a spiritual gift? Are you praying for a certain one?

I believe all the gifts mentioned in the NT are in operation today.

Yes, I believe I have several spiritual gifts. I have prayed for the gift of healing but have not been given it yet. One of my greatest desires is to help alleviate suffering.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I am not.

Well, how so? I don't find anything in 1 Cor. 12-14 that cannot have had its origin in apostolic laying on of hands. Does he not tell this same congregation that such signs, miracles and wonders are "THE SIGN" of the apostolic office in 2 Cor. 12:12?

Look at Romans 12 and you will find a complete absence of sign gifts. However, Romans 1:11 Paul says that one reason he wished to come to them is to impart unto them spiritual gifts.