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Featured The Fathers Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012.

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  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Matthew 7:13
    [ The Narrow and Wide Gates ] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Matthew 26:39
    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

    Matthew 26:42
    He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

    Matthew 7:21
    [ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Our will leads to destruction the wide road, the Father will leads to life the narrow road. The few that find it does this.

    2 Corinthians 5 :
    16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    1 Peter 1:12
    It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    The result is this

    Revelation 7 :
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    What is the Fathers will?
     
    #1 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
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  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    John 7:17
    Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
     
    #2 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
  3. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Are you asking a question or just making a statement?
     
    #3 Herald, Jun 14, 2012
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    There is a question in the OP!
     
    #4 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jun 14, 2012
  6. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Sorry. I thought your post was an answer to your own question. doh!
     
    #6 Herald, Jun 14, 2012
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Did Jesus with the scripture posted in OP have a different will from the Father that He had to deny?

    If so where did this will come from?
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No.....
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    The "will" is what is spoken of as the Covenant of Redemption. To speak against this is to speak against God.

     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jun 14, 2012
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  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Let me repost the scripture on the OP I am talking about

    Matthew 26:39
    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

    Matthew 26:42
    He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”


    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    Matthew 11:29
    Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.


    No one has life in them until they drink His blood and eat His flesh which is His word that comes down from the Father. We must live by ever word that comes from the mouth of God.


    1 Peter 1:12
    It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
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  10. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Jesus' will is the same as the Father's. When we read "if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me" we are seeing Jesus' humanity, but His humanity never contravened that Father's will.
     
    #10 Herald, Jun 14, 2012
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    It shows we are at war with the will of the flesh, that we have to beat this body into submission and say as Christ says not my will but your will be done. We know Jesus didn't come to bring peace but a sword. The sword of the Holy Spirit is His word. I do praise God that the flesh is weak and the Spirit is strong. and that in Christ we will defeat the flesh because of Him and what He has done.
     
    #11 psalms109:31, Jun 14, 2012
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 7:13
    [ The Narrow and Wide Gates ] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Find it, not stumble across it. Thus they were unsaved and seeking God. The folks of Matthew 23:13 provide an example of finding the road but being blocked by falsehood.

    Matthew 26:39
    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Jesus, in His humanity, did not desire to endure the cup, but He knew His Father's will and He prayed earnestly for the strength to endure to the end.

    Matthew 26:42
    He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” Still praying and considering God's words in Psalm 23.

    These two verses should never be cited in isolation from John 18:11 which depicts Jesus desire after a night of prayer and meditation. Jesus did not go to the cross grudgingly, He died for us gloriously.

    Matthew 7:21
    [ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. So yet another verse teaching unregenerates seek God and put their trust at least superficially in Jesus.

    The Father's will is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. But He does not compel us to receive the gospel, He puts the choice before us and begs us, be reconciled to God.
     
    #12 Van, Jun 14, 2012
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  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Herald, this is really double talk. The will of Jesus was NOT the Father's will, nor the same as the Father's will. Different does not mean less and although Jesus had His own will, He conformed it to the will of the Father.

    Because Christ was fully human and fully God, and though His will was not fallen, it was always SUBMISSIVE to the Father's will and NOT the same.

    That is the only interpretation that one can draw from the statement "if it is possible, let this cop pass from me."

    That Christ throttled His will and submitted to the Will of the Father is born out in the statement by Paul:

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. ​
     
    #13 agedman, Jun 14, 2012
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would you say that jesus , being dual natured god/man, would be in his divinity ALWAY in agreement, "same willed", but that his humanity had to willing submit to tha Father, as he grew up and learned obedience?

    Part of him self limiting himself to "operate' as a Man while among us?
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Jun 15, 2012
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    “The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.”C.H. Spurgeon


    Jesus flesh will was to eat after 40 days, to have the glory it had before the world began it had a will, but He faught againt the will of the flesh and won into death he obeyed the Father over the will of the flesh, now in Him we will to defeat the flesh.


    Matthew 7:21
    [ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Hebrews 5:
    7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    “So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
    Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so.”    C.H. Spurgeon


    Ezekiel 18:23
    Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    2 Peter 3:
    9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-5
    1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying —and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

    The knowledge of the truth

    John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Jun 15, 2012
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  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Joshua 24:
    14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

    I do believe we make real choices, but it doesn't come from our will. It comes from a free agency. My will was to smoke cigarettes. When i quite smoking it wasn't my wills choice to do so. I had to fight against my will to smoke. I am not convicting anyone to quite smoking, it would be nice if you did for your health. I am just using it as an example.

    Our will is to do evil, everyone of us has that desire, no one isn't any different from anyone else. No one is righteous and since everyone one is equal no one has an excuse not to follow the will of the Father.

    Romans 11:32
    For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    We have to fight against our will to follow the will of the Father, this is why I believe Jesus said not my will, but your will be done the Fathers and for us to pray for our Fathers in heaven will to be done to constantly remind us in our prayers what is important is the Fathers will to be done.

    It is only by His word that we can do it.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    This is why i also believe regeneration before faith is ridiculous also because without His word you have no faith to do the deeds and faith without deeds is a dead faith.

    Romans 10:17
    Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

    James 2:14
    [ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
     
    #16 psalms109:31, Jun 23, 2012
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  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Iconoclast, when you posted "no" and then you posted Scriptures, the Scriptures you posted showed the true answer should be, "yes."

    Here is your post:
    When Jesus said, "I came down from heaven not to do mine own will," it is that his will was in fact submitted to the Father. In that way, they were of the same in purpose, but not cloned together.

    The Father's will is always pictured as a directive in the OT, and it is not placed in a hopeful wished for longing. The Father's will is predicated upon purpose and every desire of the Father is manifested.

    That is not the same as we find representative in the Son's will. He showed preference, longing, hope, and many other humanistic characteristics that did not make Him less, but nevertheless different.

    That the Father would acknowledge the Son in open statement of being well pleased, shows that the submission of the Son to the will of the Father was without parallel.

    The Son shackled His will to that of the Father, and submitted even to the death of the cross.

    Now, because of the work and ministry living of The Christ, we have a mediator, who is familiar with all aspects of the human will and the will of the new creature created in Him (Christ Jesus), and is capable of conforming us in Him to that same will that He submitted to the Father.
     
    #17 agedman, Jun 24, 2012
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    John 6 :
    45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me...54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day...66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

    67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

    68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

    Peter got it right and listened and learned praise God for him. It is hard for us to comprehend God defeating something that isn't parallel and enmity to Himself, but He did.

    He defeated the flesh so in Him we will to, apart from Him we can do no good.

    Jesus has the words of eternal life, eat and drink and be satisfied , He is the real passover lamb, and they left nothing they ate and drink of it til there was nothing left. They lived because of lamb and because of Jesus we will have life eternal those who eat and drink of Him.

    The will of the flesh will never be parallel with the will of the Father it has to be beat to submission.
     
    #18 psalms109:31, Jun 24, 2012
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  19. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    free will

    When a person gets out of jail for robbing a bank. His will is to rob a bank and live the high life. The only thing stopping him is his free agency and his conscience of not wanting to go back to jail. His will is to still rob a bank, but his decision is not to because Of the consequences.

    Do you see the difference between will and free agency?
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Jun 27, 2012
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  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    If one considers Jesus "dual natured" then there would be no disagreement.

    However, I don't. Jesus was "blended" not like a salad in which the ingredients can be pointed out, but He was more like a good Diet Dr. Pepper Chocolate Cake. :) Once baked, the cake is of one form and substance.

    Philippians 2
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

    The bold part shows that the obedience to the Father's will was not automatic nor an unquestioned event. The garden scene shows the particulars.

    I suppose if one looks upon submission and obedience as self limiting, then your post would be accurate, but then look at the very next verses in the passage found in Philippians:
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ​

    Submission and obedience always brings the ultimate exaltation by God. That is one of His great characteristics.

    Such also applies to believers.




    Hope this helps.

    That was a great question!!!
     
    #20 agedman, Jun 27, 2012
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