Jesus/God in Hell?

[Moriah]

I believe both to be "hell". In the New Testament, both hades and gehenna are translated as "hell".

The difference being that hades is merely a holding place, if you will... a place where the sinner awaits trial and sentencing. After trial, he will be cast into the lake of fire, where he will be tormented forever.

The prison/hell /Hades spoken of in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man say the rich man was in torment there. No prison would be nice now would it? The prison/hell /Hades that people and angels are held in; this is before the great white throne judgment. To be in a prison/hell/ Hades is not the ultimate punishment; the ultimate punishment is of being thrown in the lake of fire. The Bible says Hades will be thrown in the lake of fire.

 

[Moriah]

Nor make a point of doctrine of a single verse, when entire rest of scripture denies it!

You just keep making the same false accusations against me.

 

[Yeshua1]

You just keep making the same false accusations against me.

What is false? You say the bible teaches second chance after death, only ONE verse that 'sorta: addresses it, rest of scriptures totally against it!

 

[Moriah]

What the early church believed and taught is very important. The Apostles Creed, already in written form by the late second century, shows that the early church interpreted the passage in its correct literal and grammatical sense -- Jesus descended into hell.

The belief of the early church should matter more than those which came later.

Anyone who knows sentence structure and correct grammatical usage -- which I do -- knows that the passage can be interpreted in only one way, and that's the way the early church interpreted it and codified it in the Apostles Creed.

No amount of fallacious, misguided, and twisted reasoning can undo that truth. No amount of trying to add words that are not there can change the fact of what the passage actually means.

As the creed says in perhaps the earliest confession of the Christian faith:

"I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead."

As the Anglican Church says in its Articles of religion: "VIII. Of the Creeds. The Nicene Creed, and that which is commonly called the Apostles' Creed, ought thoroughly to be received and believed: for they may be proved by most certain warrants of Holy Scripture."

It's quite amazing and amusing to see those who claim as a principle the following of the literal meaning of scripture and what the earliest churches taught, doing all kinds of contortions, additions, twistings, etc., to try and make the passage say something it doesn't; they would make a circus contortionist proud! I guess people like this only follow the scripture literally when it fits their preconceptions.

So much for the charge they like to make of denying the Word of God, not believing the truth of God's word, heresy, etc. Moral of this story: Be careful whom thou seekest to impale, lest thou shouldest be impaled on thine own sword.

The only justifiable conclusion: The literal and grammatical sense of the scripture passage, plus the witness of the early church, settles the matter.

So, all those opposed, twist away; it won't change scripture; early church history, belief, and teaching; or the truth.

(Sorry for just now posting again -- had to get students' Logic papers graded. As I caught up on the thread, I saw that Moriah has ably fought the good fight.)

You gave a very well written explanation. Glad to see you back!

 

[Moriah]

What is false? You say the bible teaches second chance after death, only ONE verse that 'sorta: addresses it, rest of scriptures totally against it!

Why are you saying something that is not true? Stop saying I teach second chances. How many times do I have to explain it is not a second chance when it is the FIRST time they heard the Truth?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why are you saying something that is not true? Stop saying I teach second chances. How many times do I have to explain it is not a second chance when it is the FIRST time they heard the Truth?

if they were physical dead already, was a second chance!

 

[Fred's Wife]

There is no chance whatsoever for salvation once a person dies and goes to hell. The fact is, according to Romans 1, God reveals Himself to EVERYONE.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The lost go to hell because they reject God and all that God is. God's way of reserving the unjust for judgment is to place them in a "holding place", just as a magistrate places a criminal in a local jail pending his trial.

The trial of the unjust will not take place until at least 1,000 years in our future. The only thing that the person in hell has to look forward to is God's wrath poured out without mercy (Revelation 14:10) at the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is no "good news" for the person who dies without Christ.

 

[Fred's Wife]

if they were physical dead already, was a second chance!

Exactly!

There is no "good news" for the person who dies without Christ.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Bible does say so that they can live according to God in the spirit.

The saved man can live according to God in the spirit. But the man who dies without Christ is not, nor ever can be, a saved man. He is in hell awaiting judgment which will happen in the future.

You reject the truth concerning those who die without Christ that is written in the Word of God for a fairy tale concocted by fallible man.

 

[Moriah]

if they were physical dead already, was a second chance!

It is not a "second" chance if they never heard of the true gospel a "first" time before dying.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is not a "second" chance if they never heard of the true gospel a "first" time before dying.

After physical death comes judgement!

ALL who die will be either heaven/hell bound. Fixed/period!

 

[Moriah]

There is no chance whatsoever for salvation once a person dies and goes to hell. The fact is, according to Romans 1, God reveals Himself to EVERYONE.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:18-20 is about people those who live a life doing all kinds of horrible sins. However, there are people in false religions who think they are doing right. There are people who obey the laws of the land. You just lump every single kind of person together. Glad you are not the judge.

The lost go to hell because they reject God and all that God is.

If they never heard of Jesus and the true gospel, then how did they reject it?

God's way of reserving the unjust for judgment is to place them in a "holding place", just as a magistrate places a criminal in a local jail pending his trial.

Where have I said no one will reject the truth? I have not said that as your words imply.

The trial of the unjust will not take place until at least 1,000 years in our future. The only thing that the person in hell has to look forward to is God's wrath poured out without mercy (Revelation 14:10) at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Why do you put in the words “without mercy”?

There is no "good news" for the person who dies without Christ.

Is going to prison for any amount of time okay? No.

If a person never heard of God and Jesus, how do you think that God does not consider that?
If you do not have answers, then why do you preach as if you do?

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 1:18-20 is about people those who live a life doing all kinds of horrible sins. However, there are people in false religions who think they are doing right. There are people who obey the laws of the land. You just lump every single kind of person together. Glad you are not the judge.

If they never heard of Jesus and the true gospel, then how did they reject it?

Where have I said no one will reject the truth? I have not said that as your words imply.

Why do you put in the words “without mercy”?

Is going to prison for any amount of time okay? No.

If a person never heard of God and Jesus, how do you think that God does not consider that?
If you do not have answers, then why do you preach as if you do?

people are already condemned at birth, as sinners who are found to be "In AdaM...

The Lord will save whosoever he pleases too, and those people will be given means to hear and receive jesus...

 

[Moriah]

After physical death comes judgement!

ALL who die will be either heaven/hell bound. Fixed/period!

How does God considering whether or not they heard the true gospel taking away judgment after physical death? It does not take away judgment after physical death.

If a person is judged to go to prison, how does that take away the fact that a person is judged? It does not.

 

[Moriah]

people are already condemned at birth, as sinners who are found to be "In AdaM...

The Lord will save whosoever he pleases too, and those people will be given means to hear and receive jesus...

God does not know you unless you obey Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 1:18-20 is about people those who live a life doing all kinds of horrible sins.

No it is not! It is the beginning of Paul's argument why ALL HUMAN BEINGS NEED TO HEAR THE GOSPEL because all human beings come into this world with a rebellious nature that supresses any truth revealed to them by creation, by conscience or by the Word of God and this argument is concluded in Romans 3:22-23 - "...for there is NO DIFFERENCE for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

In direct contrast you are saying the very opposite. You are saying there is a DIFFERENCE between humans while Paul gives description of Jews AND Gentiles in Romans 3:9-20 which includes "ALL THE WORLD" that excludes "NO FLESH" and condemns "EVERY MOUTH" excluding "NONE, NO, NOT ONE"

You simply do not understand these scriptures and simply do not know what you are talking about!

 

[Fred's Wife]

No it is not! It is the beginning of Paul's argument why ALL HUMAN BEINGS NEED TO HEAR THE GOSPEL because all human beings come into this world with a rebellious nature that supresses any truth revealed to them by creation, by conscience or by the Word of God and this argument is concluded in Romans 3:22-23 - "...for there is NO DIFFERENCE for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

In direct contrast you are saying the very opposite. You are saying there is a DIFFERENCE between humans while Paul gives description of Jews AND Gentiles in Romans 3:9-20 which includes "ALL THE WORLD" that excludes "NO FLESH" and condemns "EVERY MOUTH" excluding "NONE, NO, NOT ONE"

You simply do not understand these scriptures and simply do not know what you are talking about!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

 

[Moriah]

No it is not! It is the beginning of Paul's argument why ALL HUMAN BEINGS NEED TO HEAR THE GOSPEL because all human beings come into this world with a rebellious nature that supresses any truth revealed to them by creation, by conscience or by the Word of God and this argument is concluded in Romans 3:22-23 - "...for there is NO DIFFERENCE for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

In direct contrast you are saying the very opposite. You are saying there is a DIFFERENCE between humans while Paul gives description of Jews AND Gentiles in Romans 3:9-20 which includes "ALL THE WORLD" that excludes "NO FLESH" and condemns "EVERY MOUTH" excluding "NONE, NO, NOT ONE"

You simply do not understand these scriptures and simply do not know what you are talking about!

Romans 1:18-20 IS about people who do all kinds of evil sins. Not everyone's hearts are darkened.


For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.(AS) 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools(AT) 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images(AU) made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over(AV) in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.(AW) 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,(AX) and worshiped and served created things(AY) rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.(AZ) Amen.(BA)

26 Because of this, God gave them over(BB) to shameful lusts.(BC) Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.(BD) 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.(BE)

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over(BF) to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,(BG) 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;(BH) 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love,(BI) no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,(BJ) they not only continue to do these very things but also approve(BK) of those who practice them.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Romans 1:18-20 IS about people who do all kinds of evil sins. Not everyone's hearts are darkened.


For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.(AS) 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools(AT) 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images(AU) made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over(AV) in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.(AW) 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,(AX) and worshiped and served created things(AY) rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.(AZ) Amen.(BA)

26 Because of this, God gave them over(BB) to shameful lusts.(BC) Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.(BD) 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.(BE)

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over(BF) to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,(BG) 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;(BH) 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love,(BI) no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,(BJ) they not only continue to do these very things but also approve(BK) of those who practice them.

Their hearts were darkened as soon as they rejected God and gave space to vain imaginations.
Their turning to vile acts was a result of them rejecting God, not the opposite.

The invisible things of God are seen of them.
They knew God but did not glorify Him nor thank Him
But became vain in their imaginations.
For this cause God gave them over...

You have it the exact opposite, your version says that they didn't know God because they were reprobate... which is not the truth.

God revealed Himself to all mankind, even the ones who have not heard the Gospel. Many reject God because of their vain imaginations (vain imaginations such as a chance to be saved out of hell in the afterlife) Those who do not seek God in life will experience His wrath at the Great White Throne Judgment... they are without excuse.

 

[Moriah]

Their hearts were darkened as soon as they rejected God and gave space to vain imaginations.
Their turning to vile acts was a result of them rejecting God, not the opposite.

Do not speak as if I said something when I have not, that is not an argument against me.

The invisible things of God are seen of them.
They knew God but did not glorify Him nor thank Him
But became vain in their imaginations.
For this cause God gave them over...

What about Catholics? Are you claiming people they are among those who traded the truth for a lie? Tell me how they did or did not trade the truth for a lie.

You have it the exact opposite, your version says that they didn't know God because they were reprobate... which is not the truth.

I never said that. Do not say I say things that I have not and then use it as an argument against me.

God revealed Himself to all mankind, even the ones who have not heard the Gospel. Many reject God because of their vain imaginations (vain imaginations such as a chance to be saved out of hell in the afterlife)

So far, I have not said they would be saved out of hell. I have not said they could not be either. I just have not gotten into that part of it yet. You keep adding things that I have not said. I have said that Jesus died on the cross, was made alive in the Spirit, preached to the spirits in prison, so that they could live according to God in the spirit, in this way Jesus filled the whole universe. I also said that I believe God considers whether or not a person has ever heard the truth as for throwing them forever in the lake of fire.
Second, you call what I have stated as “vain imaginations” and say I am not saved. That is uncalled for, what a mean thing to say, to call it a vain imagination when I only repeat scripture, then to claim I am not saved for it.

Those who do not seek God in life will experience His wrath at the Great White Throne Judgment... they are without excuse.

You want to preach how God judges, so make sure you answer my question about the Catholic. Here it is in more detail.
What about a person who has never heard the truth? A person who let us say is a Catholic, but did not believe in all the Catholics taught, but did believe in God and Jesus. Let us say that person did not do all those sins as mentioned in Romans 1, but who also did not really know God. What about that person? Are you saying that Catholic is saved, or that person is going to go to hell then the lake of fire?
Please make sure you explain why, and try to use scripture.