Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Scripture does not say "were dead". You are wrong.
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Jesus/God in Hell?
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
Scripture does not say "were dead". You are wrong.
I did not say the scripture said "were."
They "are" dead now, and they "are" dead when Jesus speaks to them.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
No, it doesn't.I did not say the scripture said "were."
They "are" dead now, and they "are" dead when Jesus speaks to them.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
You keep saying they are dead when Jesus preaches the gospel to them, but you are wrong. There is no use to preach the gospel to the dead. They turned their backs to the truth in life.
They made their bed in hell, and they will not live again until a thousand years after the rapture of the Church. When they are brought before the Great White Throne, they will be judged guilty and cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.
They are without excuse. God reveals Himself to all, those who die without Christ included. And their death without Christ will ultimately to eternity without Him.
They made their bed in hell, and they will not live again until a thousand years after the rapture of the Church. When they are brought before the Great White Throne, they will be judged guilty and cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.
They are without excuse. God reveals Himself to all, those who die without Christ included. And their death without Christ will ultimately to eternity without Him.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does, the bible says "are dead."
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
It doesn't say what you infer it says.
"Are dead" is present tense. Peter's letter was written 31 years after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Had he wanted to say that Christ preached the gospel to them that were dead, he would not have used the world "are".
"Are" is present tense. Ghrist preached the Gospel... past tense, to them that "are" dead.
Had Peter wrote "were dead", your argument might be valid. But he did not. And so, your argument is flawed.
"Are dead" is present tense. Peter's letter was written 31 years after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Had he wanted to say that Christ preached the gospel to them that were dead, he would not have used the world "are".
"Are" is present tense. Ghrist preached the Gospel... past tense, to them that "are" dead.
Had Peter wrote "were dead", your argument might be valid. But he did not. And so, your argument is flawed.
Fred's Wife
Member
I posted this earlier in this thread, but it is worth repeating.Yes, it does, the bible says "are dead."
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
Things Hard to be Understood
1Pe. 4:6
“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” – 1 Peter 4:6
“You notice it doesn’t say the men who were dead. It says it was preached to them that are dead. The meaning is that those that are now dead had the Gospel preached to them while they were yet living. The third chapter of 1 Peter has something on practically the same subject, verses 18,19, and 20: ‘For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.’ The answer is that Christ went in His Spirit--—the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God--—the Holy Spirit, and preached through Noah in the days before the flood to those who now are spirits in prison. It does not mean that He has gone to them since they entered the prison and preached there to them. There is mystery about these passages, but this seems to be the true explanation” (William L. Pettingill).
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
1 Peter 4:6
For, for this cause—The expression, “For, for this cause,” refers to an end to be reached, or an object to be gained, or a reason why anything referred to is done. The end or reason why the thing referred to here, to wit, that “the gospel was preached to the dead,” was done, is stated in the subsequent part of the verse to have been “that they might be judged,” etc. It was with reference to this, or in order that this might be, that the gospel was preached to them.
Was the gospel preached also to them that are dead—Many, as Doddridge, Whitby, and others, understand this of those who are spiritually dead, that is, the Gentiles, and suppose that the object for which this was done was that “they might be brought to such a state of life as their carnal neighbors would look upon as a kind of condemnation and death”—Doddridge. Others have supposed that it refers to those who had suffered martyrdom in the cause of Christianity; others, that it refers to the sinners of the old world (Saurin), expressing a hope that some of them might be saved; and others, that it means that the Saviour went down and preached to those who are dead, in accordance with one of the interpretations given of 1 Pet. 3:19. It seems to me that the most natural and obvious interpretation is to refer it to those who were then dead, to whom the gospel had been preached when living, and who had become true Christians. This is the interpretation proposed by Wetstein, Rosenmüller, Bloomfield, and others. In support of this it may be said:
(1) THAT THIS IS THE NATURAL AND OBVIOUS MEANING OF THE WORD DEAD, WHICH SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD LITERALLY, UNLESS THERE IS SOME GOOD REASON IN THE CONNECTION FOR DEPARTING FROM THE COMMON MEANING OF THE WORD.
(2) THE APOSTLE HAD JUST USED THE WORD IN THAT SENSE IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE.
(3) THIS WILL SUIT THE CONNECTION, AND ACCORD WITH THE DESIGN OF THE APOSTLE. HE WAS ADDRESSING THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION. IT WAS NATURAL, IN SUCH A CONNECTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD DIED IN THE FAITH, AND TO SHOW, FOR THEIR ENCOURAGEMENT, THAT THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN PUT TO DEATH, YET THEY STILL LIVED TO GOD. HE THEREFORE SAYS, THAT THE DESIGN IN PUBLISHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM WAS, THAT THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE JUDGED BY PEOPLE IN THE USUAL MANNER, AND PUT TO DEATH, YET THAT IN RESPECT TO THEIR HIGHER AND NOBLER NATURE, THE SPIRIT, THEY MIGHT LIVE UNTO GOD. IT WAS NOT UNCOMMON NOR UNNATURAL FOR THE APOSTLES, IN WRITING TO THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD BEEN REMOVED BY DEATH, AND TO MAKE THEIR CONDITION AND EXAMPLE AN ARGUMENT FOR FIDELITY AND PERSEVERANCE. COMPARE 1 Thes 4:13; Rev. 14:13.
-- Barnes Notes on the New Testament
For, for this cause—The expression, “For, for this cause,” refers to an end to be reached, or an object to be gained, or a reason why anything referred to is done. The end or reason why the thing referred to here, to wit, that “the gospel was preached to the dead,” was done, is stated in the subsequent part of the verse to have been “that they might be judged,” etc. It was with reference to this, or in order that this might be, that the gospel was preached to them.
Was the gospel preached also to them that are dead—Many, as Doddridge, Whitby, and others, understand this of those who are spiritually dead, that is, the Gentiles, and suppose that the object for which this was done was that “they might be brought to such a state of life as their carnal neighbors would look upon as a kind of condemnation and death”—Doddridge. Others have supposed that it refers to those who had suffered martyrdom in the cause of Christianity; others, that it refers to the sinners of the old world (Saurin), expressing a hope that some of them might be saved; and others, that it means that the Saviour went down and preached to those who are dead, in accordance with one of the interpretations given of 1 Pet. 3:19. It seems to me that the most natural and obvious interpretation is to refer it to those who were then dead, to whom the gospel had been preached when living, and who had become true Christians. This is the interpretation proposed by Wetstein, Rosenmüller, Bloomfield, and others. In support of this it may be said:
(1) THAT THIS IS THE NATURAL AND OBVIOUS MEANING OF THE WORD DEAD, WHICH SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD LITERALLY, UNLESS THERE IS SOME GOOD REASON IN THE CONNECTION FOR DEPARTING FROM THE COMMON MEANING OF THE WORD.
(2) THE APOSTLE HAD JUST USED THE WORD IN THAT SENSE IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE.
(3) THIS WILL SUIT THE CONNECTION, AND ACCORD WITH THE DESIGN OF THE APOSTLE. HE WAS ADDRESSING THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION. IT WAS NATURAL, IN SUCH A CONNECTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD DIED IN THE FAITH, AND TO SHOW, FOR THEIR ENCOURAGEMENT, THAT THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN PUT TO DEATH, YET THEY STILL LIVED TO GOD. HE THEREFORE SAYS, THAT THE DESIGN IN PUBLISHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM WAS, THAT THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE JUDGED BY PEOPLE IN THE USUAL MANNER, AND PUT TO DEATH, YET THAT IN RESPECT TO THEIR HIGHER AND NOBLER NATURE, THE SPIRIT, THEY MIGHT LIVE UNTO GOD. IT WAS NOT UNCOMMON NOR UNNATURAL FOR THE APOSTLES, IN WRITING TO THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD BEEN REMOVED BY DEATH, AND TO MAKE THEIR CONDITION AND EXAMPLE AN ARGUMENT FOR FIDELITY AND PERSEVERANCE. COMPARE 1 Thes 4:13; Rev. 14:13.
-- Barnes Notes on the New Testament
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I posted this earlier in this thread, but it is worth repeating.
In other words, you repeat what others have already answered.
Things Hard to be Understood
Your sources still do not understand when they wrote their explanation.
1Pe. 4:6
The scripture says EVEN to those who were dead. This means that the scripture is of course preached to those who are living, but not just them, even to them who are dead.“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” – 1 Peter 4:6
“You notice it doesn’t say the men who were dead. It says it was preached to them that are dead. The meaning is that those that are now dead had the Gospel preached to them while they were yet living.
You want us to believe Jesus was put to death in the body and made alive by the Spirit in the days of Noah, while Noah was alive in the flesh. That is nonsense.The third chapter of 1 Peter has something on practically the same subject, verses 18,19, and 20: ‘For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.’ The answer is that Christ went in His Spirit--—the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God--—the Holy Spirit, and preached through Noah in the days before the flood to those who now are spirits in prison.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Fred's Wife
Member
What do you not understand? It was through His PRE-INCARNATE SPIRIT that Christ preached through the person of NOAH.
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ has always been God...that He eternally co-existed in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18)....therefore existed as God before His incarnation (John 1:14)?
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ has always been God...that He eternally co-existed in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18)....therefore existed as God before His incarnation (John 1:14)?
Most natural and obvious interpretation is no defense.It seems to me that the most natural and obvious interpretation is to refer it to those who were then dead, to whom the gospel had been preached when living, and who had become true Christians. This is the interpretation proposed by Wetstein, Rosenmüller, Bloomfield, and others.
Peter is speaking about those who were disobedient!In support of this it may be said:
(3) THIS WILL SUIT THE CONNECTION, AND ACCORD WITH THE DESIGN OF THE APOSTLE. HE WAS ADDRESSING THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION. IT WAS NATURAL, IN SUCH A CONNECTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD DIED IN THE FAITH, AND TO SHOW, FOR THEIR ENCOURAGEMENT, THAT THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN PUT TO DEATH, YET THEY STILL LIVED TO GOD. HE THEREFORE SAYS, THAT THE DESIGN IN PUBLISHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM WAS, THAT THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE JUDGED BY PEOPLE IN THE USUAL MANNER, AND PUT TO DEATH, YET THAT IN RESPECT TO THEIR HIGHER AND NOBLER NATURE, THE SPIRIT, THEY MIGHT LIVE UNTO GOD. IT WAS NOT UNCOMMON NOR UNNATURAL FOR THE APOSTLES, IN WRITING TO THOSE WHO WERE SUFFERING PERSECUTION, TO REFER TO THOSE WHO HAD BEEN REMOVED BY DEATH, AND TO MAKE THEIR CONDITION AND EXAMPLE AN ARGUMENT FOR FIDELITY AND PERSEVERANCE. COMPARE 1 Thes 4:13; Rev. 14:13.
-- Barnes Notes on the New Testament
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 1 Peter 3:20.
I understand what you are saying, and it is still wrong what you say.What do you not understand?
You want us to believe that the scripture goes from telling us Jesus died, made alive in the Spirit, AND THEN JUMP TO SAYING JESUS IN THE SPIRIT SPOKE TO NOAH THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. That is ridiculous.It was through His PRE-INCARNATE SPIRIT that Christ preached through the person of NOAH.
The scriptures say Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison.Do you not believe that Jesus Christ has always been God...that He eternally co-existed in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18)....therefore existed as God before His incarnation (John 1:14)?
The Lord is the Spirit. Why would Jesus go through the Spirit to preach to people when Noah was alive? Again, the scriptures speak of after Jesus died. You want us to believe the scriptures then jump to before Jesus ever came to earth. That is nonsense.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Those Peter says were preached to in 4:6 are not the same ones preached to in 3:18-20.
Those Peter says were preached to in 4:6 are not the same ones preached to in 3:18-20.
You continue to deny it and give ridiculous explanations. I do not think I ever heard of some of those strange explanations before.
Fred's Wife
Member
Tell that to Jesus.. that it is nonsense for Him to speak through His people (the fathers and by the prophets) before His incarnation. You seem to believe that it is impossible (by your logic) for the pre-incarnate Christ to speak through His people (the fathers and by the prophets) by His Spirit.The Lord is the Spirit. Why would Jesus go through the Spirit to preach to people when Noah was alive? Again, the scriptures speak of after Jesus died. You want us to believe the scriptures then jump to before Jesus ever came to earth. That is nonsense.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Tell that to Jesus.. that it is nonsense for Him to speak through His people (the fathers and by the prophets) before His incarnation. You seem to believe that it is impossible (by your logic) for the pre-incarnate Christ to speak through His people (the fathers and by the prophets) by His Spirit.
It is not ridiculous that Jesus spoke to people and through people in the Old Testament! That is not what I meant. I was speaking about the explanation you gave, that the scripture saying Jesus died and was made alive by the Spirit would then jump to Jesus speaking in the Spirit to people through Noah.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
You continue to deny it and give ridiculous explanations. I do not think I ever heard of some of those strange explanations before.
It is not my explanation that is ridiculous. Many great theologians agree with the fact that it would be futile to preach the Gospel to dead people and to teach that God will have mercy on them that died without Christ.
If it were possible to be saved from Hell once there, then Jesus Christ died in vain.
Fred's Wife
Member
You totally twisted what I said....I was speaking of the PRE-INCARNATE Christ...the eternal Son of God, BEFORE HIS INCARNATION speaking through Noah. No "jumping" was done. But since your mind is made up that man has a second chance to be saved after death, there is no need for any more discussion with you.It is not ridiculous that Jesus spoke to people and through people in the Old Testament! That is not what I meant. I was speaking about the explanation you gave, that the scripture saying Jesus died and was made alive by the Spirit would then jump to Jesus speaking in the Spirit to people through Noah.
Have a good day.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
1 Peter 4:6 contains a motive urging people to life, ‘to the will of God,’ No such motive appears in it if it is taken to mean, as you claim, that the gospel is preached after death to the dead. To say that ‘the gospel was preached also to them that are dead’ does not say that it was preached to them when dead.
Peter’s letter is of late enough date (31 years after the resurrection of Christ) to explain his looking back to a past generation now passed away, who had heard the Gospel in their lifetime. I cannot see how the meaning of ‘in the flesh,’ which belongs to the phrase in the frequent instances of its occurrence in this passage, can be preserved in the clause ‘that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,’ unless it refers to a judgment which takes place during the earthly life.
Peter’s letter is of late enough date (31 years after the resurrection of Christ) to explain his looking back to a past generation now passed away, who had heard the Gospel in their lifetime. I cannot see how the meaning of ‘in the flesh,’ which belongs to the phrase in the frequent instances of its occurrence in this passage, can be preserved in the clause ‘that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,’ unless it refers to a judgment which takes place during the earthly life.