Jesus/God in Hell?

[The Biblicist]

First of all, you don't know what my conclusion is. Secondly, we are not dealing with that here; we are dealing with the correct meaning of a passage of scripture. For all the reasons I mentioned, it means one thing and one thing only; that's what the scripture explicitly states, and that's what the early church believed and taught. Period.

Your sources are UNINSPIRED just like you! You have stated your OPINION. You have attempted to make your argument by the context - commendable as far as that goes. However, your argument is irrational.

1. Why would one select limited group in hell be the object of Christ's preaching in hell and not ALL in hell.

2. This particular group had the gospel preached to them while they were living on earth before the flood because they heard Noah "a preacher of righteousness" in whom was "the Spirit of Christ" preaching to them the gospel defined in Acts 10:43/Heb. 4:2.

3. The language can be properly interpreted to mean only that they are NOW in hell due to just condemnation by the flood and hearing the gospel preached by Christ through Noah.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The truth is quite clear. The literal rendering of the scripture passage, its correct grammatical sense, and the belief of the early church all prove beyond doubt what the passage means. All to the contrary is merely "Chubby Checker time". :laugh:

The Early Church being your Catholic church? The Catholic church taught all kinds of heresies, if your are going to believe Jesus preached to people in hell, people that were condemned because of their unbelief, you may as well embrace the rest of their heresies too.

By the way... The Early Church may have taught that heresy, but the Earliest Church (the one formed by Jesus Christ) did not.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Early Church being your Catholic church? The Catholic church taught all kinds of heresies, if your are going to believe Jesus preached to people in hell, people that were condemned because of their unbelief, you may as well embrace the rest of their heresies too.

By the way... The Early Church may have taught that heresy, but the Earliest Church (the one formed by Jesus Christ) did not.

"My" Catholic church? I am not Catholic.

Yes, the earliest church taught that Jesus descended into hell. That's what the 1 Peter passage says, no matter how much you and Biblicist twist and add to the scripture. The very scripture which you profess to defend condemns your contortions, twistings, and add-ons.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Your sources are UNINSPIRED just like you! You have stated your OPINION. You have attempted to make your argument by the context - commendable as far as that goes. However, your argument is irrational.

1. Why would one select limited group in hell be the object of Christ's preaching in hell and not ALL in hell.

2. This particular group had the gospel preached to them while they were living on earth before the flood because they heard Noah "a preacher of righteousness" in whom was "the Spirit of Christ" preaching to them the gospel defined in Acts 10:43/Heb. 4:2.

3. The language can be properly interpreted to mean only that they are NOW in hell due to just condemnation by the flood and hearing the gospel preached by Christ through Noah.

I have shown that my argument is not only rational, it is true to the literal rendering of the scripture, the correct grammatical sense of the passage, and the historical facts of what the earliest church believed and taught.

Against these truths, you have no defense; your argument is untenable. All you can do is twist, contort, and add things that the passage does not say. You know what the Bible itself says about adding to the scripture.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No the biggest liar and hypocrit on this forum is YOU! On your past forums you complained that others were calling you names and how hypocritical and ungodly that was BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN THIS POST.

Joining Fred now, are you?

Fred first falsely accused Moriah. That makes him exactly fit the description I posted. Better be careful whom you make an ally; it's affecting you, as you seem to be reverting to the way you used to respond to me.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

"My" Catholic church? I am not Catholic.

Yes, the earliest church taught that Jesus descended into hell. That's what the 1 Peter passage says, no matter how much you and Biblicist twist and add to the scripture. The very scripture which you profess to defend condemns your contortions, twistings, and add-ons.

Funny you say I twist and add to Scripture. I just did a search for the word hell in 1 Peter and guess what????

IT'S NOT THERE.

It is you who are guilty of 'twisting and adding to Scripture."

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I have shown that my argument is not only rational, it is true to the literal rendering of the scripture, the correct grammatical sense of the passage, and the historical facts of what the earliest church believed and taught.

Against these truths, you have no defense; your argument is untenable. All you can do is twist, contort, and add things that the passage does not say. You know what the Bible itself says about adding to the scripture.

Actually, your argument is not only irrational, but it is also contrary to the literal rendering of the Scripture.

1 Peter nowhere says Jesus went to hell. You add to the Word of God when you say it does. It is you who has no defense; your argument is untenable. All you do is twist, contort, and add things that the passage does not say. And then you have the nerve to say that Biblicist and myself are guilty of doing that which you do?

Amazing.

And yes, we do know what the Bible says about adding to the Scripture. You obviously know too, but don't care.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Joining Fred now, are you?

Fred first attacked Moriah. That makes him exactly fit the description I posted. Better be careful whom you make an ally; it's affecting you, as you seem to be reverting to the way you used to respond to me.

It is funny that you have made yourself an ally of one that you call a coward.

Remember when you said that everyone that doesn't use their real name on this board was a coward?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Actually, your argument is not only irrational, but it is also contrary to the literal rendering of the Scripture.

1 Peter nowhere says Jesus went to hell. You add to the Word of God when you say it does. It is you who has no defense; your argument is untenable. All you do is twist, contort, and add things that the passage does not say. And then you have the nerve to say that Biblicist and myself are guilty of doing that which you do?

Amazing.

And yes, we do know what the Bible says about adding to the Scripture. You obviously know too, but don't care.

Twisting, and now parroting what I said. I'm flattered. Guess you've run out of ways to defend your indefensible position.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It is funny that you have made yourself an ally of one that you call a coward.

Remember when you said that everyone that doesn't use their real name on this board was a coward?

. You can't say anything without twisting the truth.

I applied that terminology only to those that it fits -- like you, for example.

[post edited]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Funny you say I twist and add to Scripture. I just did a search for the word hell in 1 Peter and guess what????

IT'S NOT THERE.

It is you who are guilty of 'twisting and adding to Scripture."

I know you are not as ignorant as you seem, but I'll explain it to you anyway. An alternate version of the Apostles Creed says Jesus descended to the dead. "Hell" comes from the Greek "Hades" which means the abode of the dead. Now think hard, and you'll maybe make the connection that the prison that the spirits were in, whom Jesus went and preached to after His death, as the passage says, was Hell, or Hades -- the abode of the dead. Ephesians 4:9 also affirms this. Further, many think that Isaiah is talking about this in Chapter 24: 21-22.

The early church figured this out; guess they were more intelligent than you.

Thus, the doctrine is clearly established by scripture, the earliest church, and early theologians. This puts the matter to rest.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Twisting, and now parroting what I said. I'm flattered. Guess you've run out of ways to defend your indefensible position.

Oh, my defense is solid.

Too bad yours isn't.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I know you are not as ignorant as you seem, but I'll explain it to you anyway. An alternate version of the Apostles Creed says Jesus descended to the dead. "Hell" comes from the Greek "Hades" which means the abode of the dead. Now think hard, and you'll maybe make the connection that the prison that the spirits were in, whom Jesus went and preached to after His death, as the passage says, was Hell, or Hades -- the abode of the dead. Ephesians 4:9 also affirms this. Further, many think that Isaiah is talking about this in Chapter 24: 21-22.

The early church figured this out; guess they were more intelligent than you.

Thus, the doctrine is clearly established by scripture, the earliest church, and early theologians. This puts the matter to rest.

The "Apostle's Creed" is a document written by the Catholic Church... long after the Apostles had died.

Had any of the Apostles been alive, they no doubt would have withstood the one who wrote that document to the face because he was to be blamed.

Jesus did not descend into hell, no matter how many times you want to agree with the Catholics and say He did.

Where He went was the grave, the tomb. "Hades" in Acts 2 is speaking of the grave, not hell.

How do I know? For one thing, the same Greek word is used in 1 Corinthians 15:55 and is translated as the grave there. For another, Christ did not have to go to hell to free the captives... they were not in hell. The rich man was in hell, tormented. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom... comforted. Christ did not go to the place of torment. As much as you and Moriah want to put Him there, it never happened. There was no need for Him to go there, because the righteous captives were not there

And no, I am not ignorant at all. I am well versed in the Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

The "Apostle's Creed" is a document written by the Catholic Church... long after the Apostles had died.

Had any of the Apostles been alive, they no doubt would have withstood the one who wrote that document to the face because he was to be blamed.

Jesus did not descend into hell, no matter how many times you want to agree with the Catholics and say He did.

Where He went was the grave, the tomb. "Hades" in Acts 2 is speaking of the grave, not hell.

How do I know? For one thing, the same Greek word is used in 1 Corinthians 15:55 and is translated as the grave there. For another, Christ did not have to go to hell to free the captives... they were not in hell. The rich man was in hell, tormented. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom... comforted. Christ did not go to the place of torment. As much as you and Moriah want to put Him there, it never happened. There was no need for Him to go there, because the righteous captives were not there

And no, I am not ignorant at all. I am well versed in the Scripture.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1. His interpretation makes no sense because it demands that Christ selectively only gathered those in hell to preach to that had been killed by the flood while ignorning the vast multitudes in hell both before and after.

2. Peter previously declared the "Spirit of Christ" was in the prophets preaching of the grace that should come and that Peter was a "preacher of righteousness" thus the Spirit of Christ was in Noah preaching to that select group.

3. By the Spirit Christ was resurrected and by the Spirit He preached to them in the day of Noah and therefore they are serving their sentence justly.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1. His interpretation makes no sense because it demands that Christ selectively only gathered those in hell to preach to that had been killed by the flood while ignorning the vast multitudes in hell both before and after.

2. Peter previously declared the "Spirit of Christ" was in the prophets preaching of the grace that should come and that Peter was a "preacher of righteousness" thus the Spirit of Christ was in Noah preaching to that select group.

3. By the Spirit Christ was resurrected and by the Spirit He preached to them in the day of Noah and therefore they are serving their sentence justly.

Amen and amen!

Christ did not have to go to hell to do this. All He had to do was die according to the Scriptures, be buried, and rise again from the dead according to the Scriptures. In resurrecting from the dead, Jesus defeated hell and the grave, setting those captives in Abraham's bosom free from deaths chains that held them.

 

[Yeshua1]

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1. His interpretation makes no sense because it demands that Christ selectively only gathered those in hell to preach to that had been killed by the flood while ignorning the vast multitudes in hell both before and after.

2. Peter previously declared the "Spirit of Christ" was in the prophets preaching of the grace that should come and that Peter was a "preacher of righteousness" thus the Spirit of Christ was in Noah preaching to that select group.

3. By the Spirit Christ was resurrected and by the Spirit He preached to them in the day of Noah and therefore they are serving their sentence justly.

Doesn't the bible state that jesus descended into the Grave/abode of the dead, not hell per say? that he went to the abode where the believers were waiting, and that he procalimed his victory unto them, and when he raised, he took them with him back to heaven?

 

[The Biblicist]

Doesn't the bible state that jesus descended into the Grave/abode of the dead, not hell per say? that he went to the abode where the believers were waiting, and that he procalimed his victory unto them, and when he raised, he took them with him back to heaven?

The bodies of all the saints go to the grave but the spirits never go down but go UP to God (Eccles. 3:21; Mt. 22:32

Eccles. 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Eccles. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

The Psalmist knows of only two contrasting places in Psalm 139 - heaven and hell.

 

[Yeshua1]

The bodies of all the saints go to the grave but the spirits never go down but go UP to God (Eccles. 3:21; Mt. 22:32

Eccles. 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Eccles. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

The Psalmist knows of only two contrasting places in Psalm 139 - heaven and hell.

the Bible though seem to indicate that when OT believers died, their bodies went into the Grave, souls to a holding place in Sheol, Abrahams bosum...

Waiting until messiah came/died/rose, and when jesus went to them, he announced victory over Grave and brought them back with him to heaven, emping out that compartment!

they could not go directly into heaven untill full access was provided by death and raising of christ!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The "Apostle's Creed" is a document written by the Catholic Church... long after the Apostles had died.

Had any of the Apostles been alive, they no doubt would have withstood the one who wrote that document to the face because he was to be blamed.

Jesus did not descend into hell, no matter how many times you want to agree with the Catholics and say He did.

Where He went was the grave, the tomb. "Hades" in Acts 2 is speaking of the grave, not hell.

How do I know? For one thing, the same Greek word is used in 1 Corinthians 15:55 and is translated as the grave there. For another, Christ did not have to go to hell to free the captives... they were not in hell. The rich man was in hell, tormented. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom... comforted. Christ did not go to the place of torment. As much as you and Moriah want to put Him there, it never happened. There was no need for Him to go there, because the righteous captives were not there

And no, I am not ignorant at all. I am well versed in the Scripture.

A few points: The Apostles Creed was not written by the Catholic Church; it was in written form by the late second century. Many denominations accept and use the Apostles Creed.

"Hades" and "hell" are the same place.

I see no point in further discussion. You believe as you will, and so will I. Neither will change the other's mind.

God bless and Godspeed.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The fact is, Hades in the New Testament is actually two different places.

It is hell for the unbeliever, a place of torment. (Luke 16)

But for the believer, it is no more than the grave (1 Corinthians 15:55) This would explain why the rich man "lifted his eyes and seeth Abraham afar off". Those who died as believers never went to hell, then never went any further than the grave as far as their bodies were concerned, while their souls continued upward and back to God.