What does Apostle paul state? Do we receive the Holy Spirit by works/deeds of the flesh, or by faith in Christ alone?
Since its by Faith alone, why try to get Him by works of the law, by which NONE will be justified by before God?
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Eph. 2:8-9 parallel with Titus 3:5 on good works
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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What does Apostle paul state? Do we receive the Holy Spirit by works/deeds of the flesh, or by faith in Christ alone?
Since its by Faith alone, why try to get Him by works of the law, by which NONE will be justified by before God?
Works of the law are circumcision, observance of special days, eating and drinking rules, gift offerings, sin offerings, external washings for an earthly tabernacle.
People misunderstand Paul to their destruction. Can you imagine for a little while how life was to be a child of God? Can you imagine all the hundreds and hundreds of years what one had to do to be a child of God? They had the works of the law, and it was not just commands not to do evil. They are the people who worked to belong to God. If they did not do those things, then they were not His.
Not only did the Jews have to obey the law that was given to Moses, but the Pharisees and teachers of the law added to God’s word with traditions of men, like washing hands before eating.
The Jews are the people to whom Jesus is speaking about when he says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
The Jews had the works of the law. No one is a child anymore through works. Paul is explaining that those things are not required anymore, that the blood of lambs and goats do not make a person clean, only the blood of Jesus can do that. THAT NEVER MEANS WE DO NOT HAVE T
BEY GOD.
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Works of the law are circumcision, observance of special days, eating and drinking rules, gift offerings, sin offerings, external washings for an earthly tabernacle.
People misunderstand Paul to their destruction. Can you imagine for a little while how life was to be a child of God? Can you imagine all the hundreds and hundreds of years what one had to do to be a child of God? They had the works of the law, and it was not just commands not to do evil. They are the people who worked to belong to God. If they did not do those things, then they were not His.
Not only did the Jews have to obey the law that was given to Moses, but the Pharisees and teachers of the law added to God’s word with traditions of men, like washing hands before eating.
The Jews are the people to whom Jesus is speaking about when he says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
The Jews had the works of the law. No one is a child anymore through works. Paul is explaining that those things are not required anymore, that the blood of lambs and goats do not make a person clean, only the blood of Jesus can do that. THAT NEVER MEANS WE DO NOT HAVE T
peter said that that we could NOT BURDEN down the gentiles, compell them to obey the law, as the jews themselves could not!
salvation is by faith alone, grace alone!
The scripture that says that, it should show you it is not about we no longer have to obey God and not sin. It is about not having to do circumcision, observance of special days, and those works that Moses had been given to give to the people.
ALL that God requires from us in order to be saved is to place faith in Christ!
If a man love me he will keep my commands.
Did you forsake all that you had before you came to Christ in order that you might be saved?
God does not even know you if you do not obey. God gives His Spirit to those He accepts. If someone wants Jesus to save them, do you not believe that they have to admit they are sinners and are sorry for their sins?
I am not harassing you, and you did not answer me. This is a debate forum.
You were the one that claimed that the unsaved can and must love Jesus.
Then you claimed that they must obey him.
Then you claimed that they must keep his commandments.
Thus I gave you Luke 14:33 as one of his commandments, and asked if you had kept it? You were reluctant to give an answer. You finally said you have kept it.
Now I have asked if you obeyed this command when you were unsaved, as a condition for salvation (as you have taught others), or was it after you were saved (in a process of sanctification)? Which one?
You might also explain for us: How and when did you forsake ALL that you had. It would be an interesting testimony.
You are harassing me, and you need to stop.
I have answered you. Stop denying the truth. Anyone who can see can read where I answered you. I did not even have to answer you.
This is a debate forum.
That is what Jesus said. I only said what Jesus said.
Again, that is what Jesus said. Jesus is the truth.
I was not reluctant to give an answer. I answered you. When you asked me again and again, I did not want to keep giving an answer to you who do not understand the scriptures, and when you kept calling me a hypocrite and saying I disobey Jesus. I did not want to answer according to your false beliefs of what those scriptures mean. I did not even have to answer you.
Right there you admitted that I gave you the answer, but you had just lied in this same post and said I did not answer you.
God showed He accepted me when He gave me His Spirit. I obeyed God before I was saved, and I obey now with understanding and power.
I do not think that I would care for you to read my testimony. You go against me when I quote scripture and explain what Jesus says, why would you like my testimony?
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God accepts in his beloved Son ALL who do the ONE thing that He requires...
repent and belive in jesus as the messiah, saviour for their sins!
Rom. 2:17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Moriah, do you see the repetitive "the law" throughout this section? Do you see it includes the ten commandments (vv. 21-22) as well as circumcision in the same law (vv. 25-27).
"Works" are what YOU DO and "the law" is what REVEALS to you what God wants you to do!
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Hence, the "works of the law" are what YOU DO TO PLEASE GOD'S REVEALED WILL.
So YOUR idea that "the works of the law" include only the ceremonial aspects of "the law" is repudiated by Paul completely and thoroughly not merely in Romans 2 but throughout Romans chapters two through chapter 7.
So don't tell us that the "works of the law" only include circucmision but do not include the ten commandments as Paul says the ten commandments along with circumcision are included in the works of "the law" in Romans 2 as well as in Romans 7.
I have explained this to you before, and I do not mind explaining it again.
The law is not separated into sections; the part of the law that tells of evil not to do is not separated from the ceremonial aspects of the law. It is a whole called the law. All of it together is the law. It is about obeying God. If God says to do it, to do it is right. The part of the law that says be circumcised, is something GOD said to do, to not do it would be breaking the law. To not be circumcised would be a sin like stealing, because it is disobeying God.
Now consider what made a person a Jew and not a Jew, it was not just that the Jew did not steal, it was that the Jew was circumcised. Stealing is wrong for Jew and Gentile, but Gentiles did not have to be circumcised, they were separated from God. In Romans 2:23 it says, “You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? Think for a minute why are they bragging about the law. Think for a minute why would they brag about the law if they were stealing, or committing adultery. They are bragging about the law because God gave it to them, the Jews. They were God’s people, the Gentiles were not God’s people, and this was evident through circumcision and the outward external ceremonial observances. All of Romans that you quoted because you thought it would go against what I am saying actually shows what I am saying is correct. Notice that these scriptures show that Jews and Gentiles can both observe the do not evil part of the law like do not commit adultery and do not steal, but both do not have circumcision. Through Christ, the dividing wall has been destroyed. What was destroyed? Was stop stealing destroyed, was do not commit adultery destroyed? NO! Not doing evil was not the dividing wall. That is not the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles. Stop stealing and do not commit murder was not destroyed, for it is wrong for all to steal and murder. What was the dividing wall then? What divided a Jew from a Gentile? The dividing barrier is that the Jews were God’s children through the whole law, the whole law that included circumcision.
Jesus destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall.
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
Remember what I had just talked about, the law is a whole not separated. Now, n the New Testament, Jesus did not tell Christians to be circumcised, did Jesus tell people do not commit adultery and do not steal? YES, of course that is what Jesus taught us. So, what did God nail to the cross, was it the fact that we should not steal and commit murder? NO. God nailed the barrier to the cross, the part we do not have to do anymore to be called God’s child, and that is circumcision! It is circumcision and other regulations for an earthly worship.
Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
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God nailed to Christ ALL the sins ever commited, and he who knew NO sin became the sin bearer, our substitute!
His perfect obedience to the Law allowed the father to see me in Him, that his spiritual perfection is now mine, in the sense that in Christ, I too have always kept the law, so the ordinances and commands have been nailed away...
Now freed up to live for God in the power and person of the Holy spirit. new person in jesus...
Christ is the end of the law for he who has faith in him, as jesus did for me what I could not do... Keep the law!
God nailed our sins to the cross DOES NOT MEAN WE CAN SIN. I was speaking about the DIVIDING WALL that separated Jews and Gentiles. Again, what separated the Jews from the Gentiles? Please answer that, because that is what I was writing about that you quoted. At least answer according to what I said.
Therefore, that it will look as if you keep the law that is what you are saying. Jesus dying for us is not a license to sin.
You could not keep the law; however, you do admit you obey God, correct?
We agree up to this point but no further.
You previously said:
The law is not separated into sections
Now you make separations in the law. You claim thou shalt not steal applies equally to both Jews and Gentiles but then you SEPARATE circumcison from the rest of the law and say it only applies to Jews and not Gentiles. Hence, the law can be separated and YOU DO IT by separating circumcison and other aspects of the law to Jews only while claiming other aspects of the law cannot be separated. That is being totally inconsistent and contradictory REGARDLESS HOW YOU ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY IT.
Either it cannot be separated or it can be separated - MAKE UP YOUR MIND! You cannot have it both ways!
yes, but its not to keep the law in order to stay on Gods good side, but to please Him, and to become more like jesus!
Stop seeing it as “separated.” There is a New Testament, and an Old Testament.
In the Old Testament there was the law, and in the law included circumcision.
In the New Testament, Jesus teaches us to obey God. When Jesus was still alive, he did not teach we do not have to be circumcised because Jesus had not yet been crucified. Jews were still to be circumcised, they still had to obey God. Notice that there are not scriptures in the New Testament of Jesus going into detail about doing circumcision. However, did you ever read that Jesus said do not commit adultery? Of course, Jesus taught do not commit adultery. What is not a command anymore is to be circumcised in the flesh, that is the Old Testament. We all are to obey the New Testament. The New Testament teachings are about sins we are not supposed to do, just like the Old Testament, and good things we are to do, just like the Old Testament, but the Old Testament had sinners put to death, the Old Testament had circumcision and various other external rules and regulations just to worship God.
In the New Testament, God nailed circumcision to the cross; however, God did not nail do not commit adultery to the cross.
So, stop saying I am separating something. I am explaining Old Testament and New Testament. It is never okay to sin like stealing and adultery, not before being saved or after.
It was a sin not to be circumcised in the Old Testament, but not in the New Testament.
You just contradicted yourself, you said it is not to keep the law in order to stay on God’s good side, but to please Him; however, that IS staying on God’s good side.
My oh my! Didn't you even read YOUR OWN WORDS? Apparently not!
First, you said the law contains both circumcison and the ten commandments and they cannot be separated from "the Law" - Here are your own words:
Originally Posted by Moriah
I have explained this to you before, and I do not mind explaining it again.
The law is not separated into sections; the part of the law that tells of evil not to do is not separated from the ceremonial aspects of the law. It is a whole called the law. All of it together is the law. It is about obeying God. If God says to do it, to do it is right. The part of the law that says be circumcised, is something GOD said to do, to not do it would be breaking the law. To not be circumcised would be a sin like stealing, because it is disobeying God.
Thus the law cannot be separated or PARTED OUT but comes as a WHOLE inclusive of moral, ceremonial and civil applications.
However, you then tried to tell us that although PART of the law applies to the Gentile, like thou shalt not kill, but other PARTS did not apply to the Gentile like "circumcision." Hence, you made a SEPARATION in the law by applying SOME PARTS to Jews and OTHER PARTS to Gentiles. Either the Law cannot be PARTED out - SEPARATED or it can - Which is it? You cannot have both ways!
If the Jew is UNDER THE LAW thou shalt not kill and the Law of thou shalt not kill cannot be separated from the law of circucmison then to be UNDER ONE PART is to be UNDER ALL PARTS or else you have DIVIDED and SEPARATED the Law some parts for Jews and other parts for Gentiles.
Don't you understand that your application DIVIDES the law between Jews and Gentiles? If that is the case, then it can be divided and all people are under the MORAL law but all people are not under the civil or ceremonial laws.
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