Eph. 2:8-9 parallel with Titus 3:5 on good works

[DHK]

All were savd by same way, by the death of Jesus upon the Cross as atonement for their sins, but the OT believers were under an inferior relationship, as it was based upon physical blessings from the Lord concerning the promised land, while we in chuch age have allspiritual blessings in christ!

We are under a surer/better covenant, as we can go directly to God, something not able to be done in OT, as they needed to go through priesthood, but ALL of us now priests before God!

There were OT believers that did not have to through the priesthood, did not have to go through Israel, etc. to be saved. Ruth is a good example of that. Naomi lived a Godly life. It was not the Jewish religion that she saw, but the Godly life she saw. Thus Orpah went back to her idolatry, but Ruth's life had been changed. She gives one of the most beautiful salvation testimony's in the Bible:

Ruth 1:16-17 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me.

 

[The Biblicist]

Could the OT believer in yahweh been saved by the Cross of Chrsit looking forward, but NOT have the Holy Spirit as we do today, to indwell and infill us?

No! Because it is impossible to have any relationship with God whatsoever while in a state of spiritual death. On the other hand it is impossible to be spiritual alive without SPIRITUAL UNION with God because life is union with God through the Holy Spirit.

Thus, as Paul correctly states, one is either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" there are no other alternatives possible and no one is "in the Spirit" unless the Holy Spirit indwells them or else they are "NONE OF HIS." - Rom. 8:8-9

 

[Yeshua1]

No! Because it is impossible to have any relationship with God whatsoever while in a state of spiritual death. On the other hand it is impossible to be spiritual alive without SPIRITUAL UNION with God because life is union with God through the Holy Spirit.

Thus, as Paul correctly states, one is either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" there are no other alternatives possible and no one is "in the Spirit" unless the Holy Spirit indwells them or else they are "NONE OF HIS." - Rom. 8:8-9

You hold that the Church started in the time of the messiah yeshua, correct?

 

[The Biblicist]

You hold that the Church started in the time of the messiah yeshua, correct?

I reject the universal visible or invisible church theory. I beleive the church is strictly a visible local body of baptized believers and the scriptures speak of it in two sense; (1) Institutional; (2) concrete

Hence, I do no believe the "body of Christ" includes anyone but those water baptized into its congregation in the particular geographical location where it habituals assembles together.

 

[Fred's Wife]

I reject the universal visible or invisible church theory. I beleive the church is strictly a visible local body of baptized believers and the scriptures speak of it in two sense; (1) Institutional; (2) concrete

Hence, I do no believe the "body of Christ" includes anyone but those water baptized into its congregation in the particular geographical location where it habituals assembles together.

Your response causes me to ask this question:

What about someone who is wheelchair bound?

We have a friend who is in the advanced stages of Muscular Dystrophy. He has already out lived his life expectancy. He has made a profession of faith in Christ Jesus and that profession shows by his lifestyle.

Are you telling me that if this person does not get water baptized his faith is in vain?

Please elaborate.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your response causes me to ask this question:

What about someone who is wheelchair bound?

We have a friend who is in the advanced stages of Muscular Dystrophy. He has already out lived his life expectancy. He has made a profession of faith in Christ Jesus and that profession shows by his lifestyle.

Are you telling me that if this person does not get water baptized his faith is in vain?

Please elaborate.

The church has nothing to do with personal salvation. John the Baptist was neither baptized or a member of the Lord's church but Jesus said there was not a greater man born of woman than John. All the Old Testament saints were regenerated unbaptized believers.

The church is for service not salvation. The church of God is NOT synonomous with the Kingdom or Family of God. The kingdom has to do with CITIZENSHIP and the family KINSHIP but the church has to do with PUBLIC WORSHIP and SERVANTHOOD.

The church is given the "keys of the kingdom" and thus cannot be the kingdom as that would be giving the kingdom to the kingdom.

The church cannot be the family of God because that would exclude all saints prior to building the church out of the material John the Baptist prepared for Christ to build the church outside God's family.

The church is the administrative institution within the kingdom of God on earth to carry out the Great Commission. All Christians are to be witnesses of Christ but the New Testament church is the only ADMINISTRATIVE INSTITUTION on earth responsible to administer the Great Commission.

We are born into God's Family and translated into the Kingdom of His Son BEFORE we are water baptized into the congregational body of Christ - Acts 2:40-41.

 

[Yeshua1]

I reject the universal visible or invisible church theory. I beleive the church is strictly a visible local body of baptized believers and the scriptures speak of it in two sense; (1) Institutional; (2) concrete

Hence, I do no believe the "body of Christ" includes anyone but those water baptized into its congregation in the particular geographical location where it habituals assembles together.

regardless if one holds to a Universal Church, as I do, that has it members part of local churches, or view it as you do...

Didn't the Church start in times of yeshua, not in OT?

 

[The Biblicist]

regardless if one holds to a Universal Church, as I do, that has it members part of local churches, or view it as you do...

Didn't the Church start in times of yeshua, not in OT?

Yes, Jesus Christ built the church in his own personal ministry while on earth and thus it preexisted, and its membership preexisted the day of Pentecost. The body of Christ preexisted the day of Pentecost - Mt. 18:15-17; Acts 1:21-22; Mt. 28:19-20.

 

[The Biblicist]

regardless if one holds to a Universal Church, as I do, that has it members part of local churches,

Hence, you have TWO different kinds of congregational bodies not "one body." Moreover, you have a long list of absolute contradictions that cannot possibly be harmonized.

1. One kind only accepts immersed believers while the other kind accepts unbaptized, sprinkled, poured and immersed believers.

2. One kind is local and visible in nature while the other kind is universal and invisible in nature.

3. One kind excludes members by church discipline while the other kind cannot exclude its members (unless you believe saved people can lose salvation).

4. One kind is united by a common faith and practice while the other kind is divided by variety of faiths and practices.

5. One kind all members can rejoice or sorrow with all of its members while the other kind cannot possibly know a fraction of its membership. - I Cor. 12:25-26

6. One kind actually assembles with all of its members while the other kind never assembles with all of its members here and now.

7. One kind has a Pastor, deacon, treasurer but the other kind has no such leadership.

8. One kind can be properly concretely described as plural "churches" but the other kind cannot be thus called.

9. Every single metaphor used in scripture never exceeds the limits of localization and visibility but there are no such metaphors in scripture used to describe the other kind - invisible, universal.

10. One kind is a congregational body of baptized believers whereas the other kind repudiates those limitations.

11. One kind perfectly harmonizes with the gospel and gospel salvation before and after Pentecost whereas the other kind demands another kind of salvation prior to Pentecost - a salvation OUTSIDE of Christ rather than "IN Christ."

and the list goes on and on.

Bottom line - Your kind is synomous with all the characteristics of what the Bible calls "The Great Whore" instead of the "Bride" of Christ (Rev. 22:16-17; 2 Cor. 11:2-4). Both are metaphors, one a metaphor for FAITHFULNESS and the other a metaphor for UNFAITHFULNESS.

 

[DHK]

Please don't stray from the OP or the title of the thread:

Thread: Eph. 2:8-9 parallel with Titus 3:5 on good works

The universal church can be discussed in another thread. Please don't derail this thread with that subject.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hence, you have TWO different kinds of congregational bodies not "one body." Moreover, you have a long list of absolute contradictions that cannot possibly be harmonized.

1. One kind only accepts immersed believers while the other kind accepts unbaptized, sprinkled, poured and immersed believers.

2. One kind is local and visible in nature while the other kind is universal and invisible in nature.

3. One kind excludes members by church discipline while the other kind cannot exclude its members (unless you believe saved people can lose salvation).

4. One kind is united by a common faith and practice while the other kind is divided by variety of faiths and practices.

5. One kind all members can rejoice or sorrow with all of its members while the other kind cannot possibly know a fraction of its membership. - I Cor. 12:25-26

6. One kind actually assembles with all of its members while the other kind never assembles with all of its members here and now.

7. One kind has a Pastor, deacon, treasurer but the other kind has no such leadership.

8. One kind can be properly concretely described as plural "churches" but the other kind cannot be thus called.

9. Every single metaphor used in scripture never exceeds the limits of localization and visibility but there are no such metaphors in scripture used to describe the other kind - invisible, universal.

10. One kind is a congregational body of baptized believers whereas the other kind repudiates those limitations.

11. One kind perfectly harmonizes with the gospel and gospel salvation before and after Pentecost whereas the other kind demands another kind of salvation prior to Pentecost - a salvation OUTSIDE of Christ rather than "IN Christ."

and the list goes on and on.

Bottom line - Your kind is synomous with all the characteristics of what the Bible calls "The Great Whore" instead of the "Bride" of Christ (Rev. 22:16-17; 2 Cor. 11:2-4). Both are metaphors, one a metaphor for FAITHFULNESS and the other a metaphor for UNFAITHFULNESS.

Would say that amajority even among baptists would define the Church as I have though!

back to the OP now...

is the ONLY way the RCC can see itself as the valid and real Church of Christ is thru Apostolic Succession doctrine?

 

[The Biblicist]

Would say that amajority even among baptists would define the Church as I have though!

back to the OP now...

is the ONLY way the RCC can see itself as the valid and real Church of Christ is thru Apostolic Succession doctrine?

The OP demands that regeneration precedes "good works" and baptism is a "good work" and a good work "which we have done."

 

[Yeshua1]

The OP demands that regeneration precedes "good works" and baptism is a "good work" and a good work "which we have done."

Didn't jesus answer the question though "What work must we do?" "believe on the One whom God has sent, in the name of his only Son!"

 

[The Biblicist]

Didn't jesus answer the question though "What work must we do?" "believe on the One whom God has sent, in the name of his only Son!"

Perhaps you need to refamiliarize yourself with that verse a bit more. If you are referring to the text I think you are the question came from lost Pharisees. The question assumed they had natural ability to perform the works of God. Christ responded that faith is "the work of God" not their work - Jn. 6:29 and then went on to prove it in John 6:36-44, 64-65.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps you need to refamiliarize yourself with that verse a bit more. If you are referring to the text I think you are the question came from lost Pharisees. The question assumed they had natural ability to perform the works of God. Christ responded that faith is "the work of God" not their work - Jn. 6:29 and then went on to prove it in John 6:36-44, 64-65.

was referencing the time when greeks came to jesus, and he answered that the work God would require is to just believe on Him to be saved by the father...

Think he said that he was a seed that would fall to earth, die, but sprout out new life for many...

 

[The Biblicist]

was referencing the time when greeks came to jesus, and he answered that the work God would require is to just believe on Him to be saved by the father...

Think he said that he was a seed that would fall to earth, die, but sprout out new life for many...

John 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

OR


Jn. 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Yeshua1]

John 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

OR


Jn. 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

that is the one!
pretty clear from jesus Himself that God looks for faith in jesus to save us, NOT ANY external works of 'rightiousness!"

 

[The Biblicist]

God looks for faith

I think you not only missed what Christ said but his continued explanation of what he said (Jn. 6:36; 44, 64-65). He did not "look for faith" but is the source from which faith originates as it is His work - Heb. 12:2; Philip. 2:13; Eph. 2:8; etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you not only missed what Christ said but his continued explanation of what he said (Jn. 6:36; 44, 64-65). He did not "look for faith" but is the source from which faith originates as it is His work - Heb. 12:2; Philip. 2:13; Eph. 2:8; etc.

I understand that aspect, as our faith itself is the gift of God towards us chosen to be saved by him in the Elect, was just addressing the aspect that the RCC and others require more than/other than faith alone in jesus to save!