whats Does The RCC mass/Eucherist Add To lacking of the Cross?

[Yeshua1]

What additional grace does it provide its participates that was lacking in the death of jesus on the Cross?

 

[The Biblicist]

What additional grace does it provide its participates that was lacking in the death of jesus on the Cross?

Nothing! However, sacramentalism demands that is how the cross is conveyed to people. Paul denies that "works of righteousness which we have done" conveys such grace.

 

[billwald]

God is present in some special way during the sacraments. The Holy Spirit ministers to/revives us in the sacraments. Sacraments are revival meetings.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What additional grace does it provide its participates that was lacking in the death of jesus on the Cross?

I will answer you with a quote from EWTN.

The other Sacraments give us grace, the Holy Eucharist gives us not only grace but the Author of all grace, Jesus, God and Man. It is the center of all else the Church has and does.

As St. Mark records that, at the Last Supper, Jesus "took bread, blessed and broke it and gave it to them: "Take this, this is my Body" (Mk 14:22). That word blessed in Greek is eucharistesas, from which the Eucharist derives its name.
Three of the four Gospels record the institution of the Holy Eucharist: Matthew 26:25-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-23. St. Paul also records it in First Corinthians 11:23-25. St. John's Gospels does not report this, presumably because he intended chiefly to fill in what the others had not written, for he wrote probably between 90 and 100 A.D. There are small variations in the words, but the essentials are the same in all accounts: This is my body... this is my blood.

In John 6:53 Jesus said: "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you will not have life in you." Of course, He did not mean to cut off salvation from those who through no fault of their own do not know or grasp this truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

I will answer you with a quote from EWTN.

So are RC saved by grace immediatly once Chrsit jesus has been received by faith, or is it we beleive in jesus, but also required to take enough sacramental graces in order to have enough merit in ourselves to allow the Lord to final save us in the end?

Like on probation period, and need to do well on Gods final exam?

 

[Yeshua1]

Nothing! However, sacramentalism demands that is how the cross is conveyed to people. Paul denies that "works of righteousness which we have done" conveys such grace.

Does the RCC teach a probationary salvation, in that we are saved at first, but mustcontinue in the sacraments in order to pass Gods final exam in end?

 

[Bro. James]

Having been a Catholic, pre-Vatican II, I have a remembrance of being taught that most everyone goes to purgatory for an unspecified time, depending on how many unconfessed venial sins one may have committed. This time can be shortened by buying indulgences--usually done by the bereaved. I am really cloudy about the mortal sin category. These, unconfessed, would bar one from heaven forever. We were also taught that it was a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday. All of this may have changed since Vatican II. There are some who say True Catholicism was usurped at Vatican II; and the one in power now are illegitimate.

Curious: there are millions who say they believe what the Holy See puts out. Also curious: there are over 13 million followers of Joseph Smith Jr.

Will The Lord find The Faith when He returns? Yes. He has preserved them through the fire.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So are RC saved by grace immediatly once Chrsit jesus has been received by faith,

Yes. But remember the Catholic view is that salvation includes many things which is everything about salvation ie justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.. So you have been saved, but are being saved as you transform yourself into the likeness of Jesus Christ, and you will be saved when you are resurrected and enter into heaven.

or is it we beleive in jesus, but also required to take enough sacramental graces in order to have enough merit in ourselves to allow the Lord to final save us in the end?

This is a confused question. The fact is upon belief and baptism you are saved in that you belong to God. All you have to do is remain in Jesus until the end of your physical life. We don't merit for ourselves salvation. but once we enter into the Kingdom we can merit God's pleasure by being obedient Children following God's will and laying down our lives and picking up our crosses and following him. Let me give you a common prayer Catholics say to help you understand what I am saying.

O my God, relying on Your almighty power and infinite mercy and promises, I hope to obtain pardon of my sins, the help of Your grace and life everlasting, through the merits of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Redeemer. Amen

That prayer is a confident hope in the promise of Jesus Christ. It his Merits that 1)saves me and 2) gives me the graces to live as he wants me to. The word hope in this prayer isn't a "hope I make it" view its the Hope Hebrews speaks of in faith. I have a sure hope that in the merits of Jesus Christ I will obtain pardon of my sins, the help of Jesus' grace, and life everlasting. Not on our ability but on his.
However, as I've said before we must remain in Jesus. Its not probational but there is nothing keeping us from throwing away that gift. And some people do choose themselves over the gift of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. But remember the Catholic view is that salvation includes many things which is everything about salvation ie justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.. So you have been saved, but are being saved as you transform yourself into the likeness of Jesus Christ, and you will be saved when you are resurrected and enter into heaven.


This is a confused question. The fact is upon belief and baptism you are saved in that you belong to God. All you have to do is remain in Jesus until the end of your physical life. We don't merit for ourselves salvation. but once we enter into the Kingdom we can merit God's pleasure by being obedient Children following God's will and laying down our lives and picking up our crosses and following him. Let me give you a common prayer Catholics say to help you understand what I am saying. That prayer is a confident hope in the promise of Jesus Christ. It his Merits that 1)saves me and 2) gives me the graces to live as he wants me to. The word hope in this prayer isn't a "hope I make it" view its the Hope Hebrews speaks of in faith. I have a sure hope that in the merits of Jesus Christ I will obtain pardon of my sins, the help of Jesus' grace, and life everlasting. Not on our ability but on his.
However, as I've said before we must remain in Jesus. Its not probational but there is nothing keeping us from throwing away that gift. And some people do choose themselves over the gift of God.

When is the catholic justified before God, when he has be given a new nature, selaed with Holy spirit, and are born again from above?

As Jusification oplaces one in a personal relationship to god, and that is complete!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

When is the catholic justified before God, when he has be given a new nature, selaed with Holy spirit, and are born again from above?

As Jusification oplaces one in a personal relationship to god, and that is complete!

He is justified when he believes. He is justified when he is baptized. He is justified when he lives his faith. He is justified when he dies in faith. He is justified when he becomes glorified. God restores mankind to his initial relationship with God as God had with Adam before the fall. And in that same sense just like Adam man can choose for or against God at every point in their life. We are not like the angles who had a one shot choice and cannot make another choice after that point. Man has freewill as a result of being made in the image of God. man's will lies between the Manicheans and the semi-pelagians:laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

He is justified when he believes. He is justified when he is baptized. He is justified when he lives his faith. He is justified when he dies in faith. He is justified when he becomes glorified. God restores mankind to his initial relationship with God as God had with Adam before the fall. And in that same sense just like Adam man can choose for or against God at every point in their life. We are not like the angles who had a one shot choice and cannot make another choice after that point. Man has freewill as a result of being made in the image of God. man's will lies between the Manicheans and the semi-pelagians:laugh:

Do you see justication as giving ine a new nature, thatthe Holy spiritcomes to indwell one at that time? that the person is no longer a sinner, but a saint and priest to God, who has full access to God by himself at all times?

And does the RCC define us as having semi pel wills?

 

[The Biblicist]

He is justified when he believes. He is justified when he is baptized. He is justified when he lives his faith. He is justified when he dies in faith. He is justified when he becomes glorified. God restores mankind to his initial relationship with God as God had with Adam before the fall. And in that same sense just like Adam man can choose for or against God at every point in their life. We are not like the angles who had a one shot choice and cannot make another choice after that point. Man has freewill as a result of being made in the image of God. man's will lies between the Manicheans and the semi-pelagians:laugh:

There is some truth in what you say. He is justified by purpose before the world began (Rom. 8:30) and yet he did not exercise faith, was not baptized, did not live, did not die nor was he actually glorified before the world began.

He is justified by faith in regard to imputed righteousness and remission of sins at the point of faith prior to being baptized, prior to living the Christian life, prior to glorifciation.

He is justified by baptism in regard to PUBLIC SYMBOLIC IDENTIFICATION with Christ's death and resurrection before he lives out his christian life, and before he is gloried.

He is justified VISIBLY and IMPERFECTLY and PROGRESSIVELY by His christian life ("shew me...shew you....see...) before he is glorified.

He is justified PERFECTLY by glorification.

However, in regard to remission of sins and imputation of Christ's righteousness He is justified only by faith in what actually does remit sins and provides righteousness - the Person and FINISHED SUBSTITUTIONARY work of Jesus Christ.

All other applications of Justification deal with other aspects of salvation and not literal imputed righteousness or literal remission of sins.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you see justication as giving ine a new nature, thatthe Holy spiritcomes to indwell one at that time? that the person is no longer a sinner, but a saint and priest to God, who has full access to God by himself at all times?

And does the RCC define us as having semi pel wills?

This is how I see the protestant view of Justification

What then is the part assigned to faith in justification? According to Luther (and Calvin also), the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God's revealed truths and promises (fides theoretica, dogmatica), but is the infallible conviction (fides fiducialis, fiducia) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before. Cf. Solid. Declar. III, sec. 15: "Through the obedience of Christ by faith the just are so declared and reputed, although by reason of their corrupt nature they still are and remain, sinners as long as they bear this mortal body." This so-called "fiduciary faith" is not a religious-moral preparation of the soul for sanctifying grace, nor a free act of cooperation on the part of the sinner; it is merely a means or spiritual instrument (instrumentum, organon leptikon) granted by God to assist the sinner in laying hold of the righteousness of God, thereby to cover his sins in a purely external manner as with a mantle.

thus

Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two

which lead Luther to write to Machtheon

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin."

However, I don't think this is what the NT means. I believe then that Justification is

Since justification as an application of the Redemption to the individual presupposes the fall of the entire human race...that original sin has weakened and deflected, but not entirely destroyed or extinguished the freedom of the human will ...as the children of Adam were really corrupted by original sin, they could not of themselves arise from their fall nor shake off the bonds of sin, death, and Satan. Neither the natural faculties left in man, nor the observance of the Jewish Law could achieve this...Since God alone was able to free us from this great misery, He sent in His infinite love His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Who by His bitter passion and death on the cross redeemed fallen man and thus became the Mediator between God and man. But if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God", that is he must be justified. What then is meant by justification? Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer (l.c., cap.iv: "Justificatio impii. . . translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adae, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam, Jesum Christum, Salvatorem nostrum").

thus

This entire process receives its first impulse from the supernatural grace of vocation (absolutely independent of man's merits), and requires an intrinsic union of the Divine and human action, of grace and moral freedom of election, in such a manner, however, that the will can resist, and with full liberty reject the influence of grace

 

[The Biblicist]

This is how I see the protestant view of Justification thus which lead Luther to write to Machtheon However, I don't think this is what the NT means. I believe then that Justification is thus

This may accurately convey the view of Luther and other Reformers but it is a complete perversion of the Biblical doctrine of Justification by both Rome and the Reformers (if it accurately respresents them).

What then is the part assigned to faith in justification? According to Luther (and Calvin also), the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God's revealed truths and promises (fides theoretica, dogmatica), but is the infallible conviction (fides fiducialis, fiducia) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before.

The portion in bold is the total perversion of the Biblical doctrine of justification. Paul teaches that there can be no possible justification of a person who is not also regenerated, but without confusion of justification with regeneration. That regeneration does in fact change the "inner selves" so that it not the same sinner as before! This internal change is by no part obtained by justification but soley by regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit in and through the believer.

Hence, this is a complete fabrication of justification by faith that is promoted by Rome.

Moreover, the part assigned to faith in justification is the complete receiving and resting upon the promises of God in regard to the manner and application of the substitutionary propitiation/satisfaction redemptive work of Christ in behalf of sinners. Justification by Faith plays no part in participating with and/or contributing to the righteousness of Christ in and through the believer. No, that is the role of faith in progresssive sanctification stemming from regeneration not justification.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This may accurately convey the view of Luther and other Reformers but it is a complete perversion of the Biblical doctrine of Justification by both Rome and the Reformers (if it accurately respresents them).

What then is the part assigned to faith in justification? According to Luther (and Calvin also), the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God's revealed truths and promises (fides theoretica, dogmatica), but is the infallible conviction (fides fiducialis, fiducia) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before.

The portion in bold is the total perversion of the Biblical doctrine of justification. Paul teaches that there can be no possible justification of a person who is not also regenerated, but without confusion of justification with regeneration. That regeneration does in fact change the "inner selves" so that it not the same sinner as before! This internal change is by no part obtained by justification but soley by regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit in and through the believer.

Hence, this is a complete fabrication of justification by faith that is promoted by Rome.

Moreover, the part assigned to faith in justification is the complete receiving and resting upon the promises of God in regard to the manner and application of the substitutionary propitiation/satisfaction redemptive work of Christ in behalf of sinners. Justification by Faith plays no part in participating with and/or contributing to the righteousness of Christ in and through the believer. No, that is the role of faith in progresssive sanctification stemming from regeneration not justification.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Do you have a forensic view of Justification. IE it is only a legal declaration and it happens at one time?

Does legal declaration mean "actually Just" or does it mean just declared so?

If Justified at one moment in time by legal declaration are you then guaranteed heaven?

Do you not believe that Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two is the current state of the believer?

Is there any real requirement for sanctification? Or can I choose to be miserable sin but still get to heaven with out really amending my life?

 

[WestminsterMan]

This may accurately convey the view of Luther and other Reformers but it is a complete perversion of the Biblical doctrine of Justification by both Rome and the Reformers (if it accurately respresents them).

Well.... If it accurately represents the Reformers, then you are stating that those from whence you came completely perverted Bible doctrine. How interesting.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Q

Let me ask you a few questions.

Your line of questioning is full of guile! Your line of questioning is a tactical attempt to present my view of justification by faith as something that STANDS ALONE apart from the work of regeneration in the same person so that you can charge my view simply a theoretical type of salvation without any practical bearing on the actual state of the person being justified.

However, that is a false representation of my view and the Biblical view. The Biblical view distinguishes justification from regeneration in regard to their individual nature but not in regard to their occurrence in time.

However, I will play you little game and answer your questions.

Do you have a forensic view of Justification. IE it is only a legal declaration and it happens at one time?

My view of "justification" is forensic as the very term is a judicial term and infers a court of law. It is a completed one time action WITH CONTINUING RESULTS. - Rom. 4:12; 5:1-2

Does legal declaration mean "actually Just" or does it mean just declared so?

If Justified at one moment in time by legal declaration are you then guaranteed heaven?

The imputed righteousness of Christ guarantees no future eternal condemnation from a legal standing, so yes.

Do you not believe that Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two is the current state of the believer?

No! I do not believe there are any "brothers" existing within the believer but their are two mutual ENEMIES that exist within the believer and that indwelling sin cannot possibly EVER be reconciled to the New man in life or death but must be destroyed by death completely and be completely erradicated.

Is there any real requirement for sanctification? Or can I choose to be miserable sin but still get to heaven with out really amending my life?

There is no such thing as a justified but unrengerated child of God as it is regeneration that produces the new man which is hostile to indwelling sin. Some extent of progressive sanctification is necessary but that extent as far as both TIME and DEGREE is determined soverignly by God according to the measure of days he has determined and the time of death (theif on the cross) and the purpose he has determined for your life which the measure of faith and grace and gifts are indicators (Eph. 2:10b; Rom. 12:3,7; Philip. 2:13). However, regardless of the INCOMPLETE progression of sanctification in this life there must be FULL and COMPLETE glorification which occurs AT the resurrection BEFORE the judgement seat of Christ demonstrating our INCOMPLETE works both good and bad have absolutely nothing to do with judgement about eternal destination but only rewards in that destination.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well.... If it accurately represents the Reformers, then you are stating that those from whence you came completely perverted Bible doctrine. How interesting.

WM

You know fully well that we claim no origin with the Reformers. So you are again practicing deception as before, willing and knowingly charging us with what you know we do not believe or accept.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You know fully well that we claim no origin with the Reformers. So you are again practicing deception as before, willing and knowingly charging us with what you know we do not believe or accept.

You don't understand. I know very well what you believe, but what you believe and the actual historical facts are two completely different things. You can say that you claim no origins with the Reformers all you want; however that only makes you look silly. You are simply deluding yourself.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

You don't understand. I know very well what you believe, but what you believe and the actual historical facts are two completely different things. You can say that you claim no origins with the Reformers all you want; however that only makes you look silly. You are simply deluding yourself.

WM

I see! So we must argue from your perspective of the truth. Well, that pretty well shuts down all discussion doesn't it? We simply need to shut up and submit to your perspective of history and doctrine because Rome demands their view is the only right view. Hmmmm, so that puts you in the driving seat and ridicule is the only thing we deserve because there is really nothing to debate about.

You will please forgive me if I do not bow down and worship your omniscient holiness and gravel at your feet in submission to almighty unerring Rome?