The Abrahamic Problem

[The Biblicist]

Abraham is chosen by Paul to be his illustration of all true gospel believers (Gal. 3:6-8) and all who are truly justified by faith (Rom. 4).

1. The Universality of Abraham as a role model:

Rom. 4:11...that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Gal. 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


2. The non-application of Mosaic law or Judaism to Abraham's works:

Abraham lived 430 years prior to Mosaic Law and so his "works" by which he was not justified in Romans 4:1-12 cannot be classified as "works of Judaism" or works under Mosaic law or works whereby one becomes a Jew.

Neither can they be classified as "evil" works as no one in their right mind would ever offer "evil" works for justification "before God."

3. The Contextually illustrated definition of justification by faith without works - Rom. 4:16-25:


1. This section begins in verse 16 with the declaration that faith is "by grace" so that the promise of God will be "sure" to all the promised seed of Abraham.

2. This certainty or surety by God's grace is totally dependent upon God's power to provide what no human being can aide or contribute in providing - v. 17

3. This surety of grace is illustrated by the promise of God to give Abraham and Sarah a son - vv. 18-21

4. The source of contribution and participation by either Abraham or Sarah in obtaining this promise is defined by Paul as "dead" and "deadness"- v. 19

5. This illustration is given to define the nature of justifying faith without works in regard to imputed righteousness - vv. 21-22

6. This illustration is given to define specifically the nature of justfying faith in God's provision and promise of Jesus Chist without works righteousness - vv. 23-25.

7. Romans 4:21 demands that "works" being denied in the life of Abraham for justification "before God" must refer to any kind of participation or contribution by Abraham as justifying faith is defined to be simply trust in God to provide soley by God's power what God promised.

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Hence, this definition denies that justifying "faith" is inclusive of personal obedience to God's commandments as both Abraham and Sarah had been in total disobedience to this promise of God in that they attempted to participate with God and contribute to the birth of the promised child through Hagar.

God waited until it was IMPOSSIBLE for either Abraham or Sarah to participate or contribute ("dead" "deadness" - v. 19) so that they could ONLY receive his promise by faith ALONE resting in His power to fulfill His Promise. That is the contextual definition of justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS - demonstrating that "works" in the Pre-Mosaic life of Abraham included ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he could do to participate with God or contribute to obtaining the promise of God.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Universality of Abraham as a role model:

He is not a role model, that is your human wisdom and deception. God Promised Him a Seed, a Spiritual Seed that Believes the Promises !

Gen 17:1-5

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Vs 2 here is speaking about a Spiritual Seed, Children of Promise born out if God's Promise as Isaac was a Child of Promise.

All Believers, wheter jew or gentile are as Isaac was, a Child of Promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

All these Children will be born of the Spirit, by the Spirit of Promise, that evidences them as being Children of Promise as Isaac was !

Isaac was of the Spirit Gal 4:29

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This role model stuff is complete apostate garbage !

 

[The Biblicist]

He is not a role model, that is your human wisdom and deception. God Promised Him a Seed, a Spiritual Seed that Believes the Promises !

I am sick and tired of your foolish doctrines and attempts to derail every thread that does not support your foolishness.

God promised a seed to the woman before he promised it to Abraham (Gen. 3;15). He promised a seed to His son before he promised it to the woman and all of it was a matter of PROMISE not a matter of execution of that promise.

Go learn Isaiah 48:11b and don't show your face until you do learn it.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I am sick and tired of your foolish doctrines and attempts to derail every thread that does not support your foolishness.

This is a public forum, you do not own a thing here. I will read what you put on here and comment accordingly, regardless of you being a big cry baby and teaching apostacy !

God promised a seed to the woman before he promised it to Abraham (Gen. 3;15).

So. He revealed to Abraham that He had given him a seed in all nations Gen 17:1-5

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



This is a public forum, you do not own a thing here. I will read what you put on here and comment accordingly, regardless of you being a big cry baby and teaching apostacy !



So. He revealed to Abraham that He had given him a seed in all nations Gen 17:1-5

You are attempting to derail the topic of this thread. The topic is not about who is the "seed" of Abraham but why justifying faith is not of works and thus "the Abrahamic Problem" to those who define works to include faith. If you attempt to derail the subject I will simply report you.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You are attempting to derail the topic of this thread.

No I am not, but what you put on this board can be commented on. I have started threads here and now others have taken it another direction, that is Just the reality of the situation. If you do not like it too bad !

The topic is not about who is the "seed" of Abraham but why justifying faith is not of works and thus "the Abrahamic Problem

You can still make your points, if folk are interested they will respond to your points !

If you attempt to derail the subject I will simply report you.

I am not attempting to derail anything, however I can comment on anything you say on this thread, so report all you want. You are still teaching heresy !

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not attempting to derail anything, however I can comment on anything you say on this thread, so report all you want. You are still teaching heresy !

Alright you have made your comment and I do not have any further responses to your comment. So don't start making endlless posts on this thread when no one is responding to them.

 

[savedbymercy]

Alright you have made your comment and I do not have any further responses to your comment. So don't start making endlless posts on this thread when no one is responding to them.

I do not care if you have anymore comments to mine or not. I am still going to comment on what is said on this thread or any other if feel like it. As long as I am responding to something that was posted ! Now go report that !

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not care if you have anymore comments to mine or not. I am still going to comment on what is said on this thread or any other if feel like it. As long as I am responding to something that was posted ! Now go report that !

You have made your comment and NNE is responding. If you continue to just list posts when no one is responding I will report you and you will be removed from this thread as that is nothing but intentional derailing of a thread.

 

[The Biblicist]

Abraham is chosen by Paul to be his illustration of all true gospel believers (Gal. 3:6-8) and all who are truly justified by faith (Rom. 4).

1. The Universality of Abraham as a role model:

Rom. 4:11...that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Gal. 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


2. The non-application of Mosaic law or Judaism to Abraham's works:

Abraham lived 430 years prior to Mosaic Law and so his "works" by which he was not justified in Romans 4:1-12 cannot be classified as "works of Judaism" or works under Mosaic law or works whereby one becomes a Jew.

Neither can they be classified as "evil" works as no one in their right mind would ever offer "evil" works for justification "before God."

3. The Contextually illustrated definition of justification by faith without works - Rom. 4:16-25:


1. This section begins in verse 16 with the declaration that faith is "by grace" so that the promise of God will be "sure" to all the promised seed of Abraham.

2. This certainty or surety by God's grace is totally dependent upon God's power to provide what no human being can aide or contribute in providing - v. 17

3. This surety of grace is illustrated by the promise of God to give Abraham and Sarah a son - vv. 18-21

4. The source of contribution and participation by either Abraham or Sarah in obtaining this promise is defined by Paul as "dead" and "deadness"- v. 19

5. This illustration is given to define the nature of justifying faith without works in regard to imputed righteousness - vv. 21-22

6. This illustration is given to define specifically the nature of justfying faith in God's provision and promise of Jesus Chist without works righteousness - vv. 23-25.

7. Romans 4:21 demands that "works" being denied in the life of Abraham for justification "before God" must refer to any kind of participation or contribution by Abraham as justifying faith is defined to be simply trust in God to provide soley by God's power what God promised.

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Hence, this definition denies that justifying "faith" is inclusive of personal obedience to God's commandments as both Abraham and Sarah had been in total disobedience to this promise of God in that they attempted to participate with God and contribute to the birth of the promised child through Hagar.

God waited until it was IMPOSSIBLE for either Abraham or Sarah to participate or contribute ("dead" "deadness" - v. 19) so that they could ONLY receive his promise by faith ALONE resting in His power to fulfill His Promise. That is the contextual definition of justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS - demonstrating that "works" in the Pre-Mosaic life of Abraham included ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he could do to participate with God or contribute to obtaining the promise of God.

Getting back on track

 

[savedbymercy]

demonstrating that "works" in the Pre-Mosaic life of Abraham included ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he could do to participate with God or contribute to obtaining the promise of God.

Thats not all, but even Abraham's believing God had nothing to do as a condition for God to fulfill any promises to him ! If we say Abraham's believing God was an condition, then we renter the element of works, since believing is something the man does !

 

[kyredneck]

PRIOR TO GEN 15:6:

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Heb 11

Heb 11 is chocked full of examples of "I by my works will show thee my faith". Just for the record, Abraham was regenerate long before Gen 15:6.

 

[savedbymercy]

kyr

Just for the record, Abraham was regenerate long before Gen 15:6.

Yes, when God made the first promise to him as recorded in Gen 12:1-3

Abraham was Regenrated and Righteous before God ! In fact, this is when God first preached the Gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

God preached Christ to Him, so it is written Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

 

[The Biblicist]

PRIOR TO GEN 15:6:

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Heb 11

Heb 11 is chocked full of examples of "I by my works will show thee my faith". Just for the record, Abraham was regenerate long before Gen 15:6.

You are confusing justifying faith with sanctifying faith. Justifying faith is in relationship to the declaration of the gospel and by necessity of the nature of the gospel is completely passive in regard to any kind of personal activity or contributions or participation in obtaining the propitiation that the gospel reveals has already been obtained solely and only by the personal activity, contributions and participation of Jesus Christ for his people and in the place of his people. Justifying faith completely receives and rests upon this promised provision of God in the Person of Jesus Christ and failure to completely receive and rest upon this provision is disobedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the "rest" Jesus calls His people unto.

In contrast, sanctifying faith is the SAME FAITH but not in response or in relationship to the things only Christ could provide as revealed in the gospel but in regard to the things revealed in God's word that we are commanded to obey in our own person and in our own life by means of regenerative love and the indwelling power of the Spirit of God.

The former type of faith would be disobedience and rejection of the finished work of Christ if it included our own works whereas the latter would be disobedience and rejection of the revealed will of God if we did not include our own works.

 

[The Biblicist]

kyr



Yes, when God made the first promise to him as recorded in Gen 12:1-3

Incorrect. Look at the word "HAD said" in Genesis 12:1-3 and you will see he was regenerated in Genesis 11 before he left UR of the chaldees with his Father to Haran. He was again reminded of the original command and promise in Haran after his father died.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thats not all, but even Abraham's believing God had nothing to do as a condition for God to fulfill any promises to him ! If we say Abraham's believing God was an condition, then we renter the element of works, since believing is something the man does !

As I said, the OP made no statement in regard to that issue. The OP deals with the fact that justifying faith is simply not "of works" of any kind.

 

[Yeshua1]

He is not a role model, that is your human wisdom and deception. God Promised Him a Seed, a Spiritual Seed that Believes the Promises !

Gen 17:1-5

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Vs 2 here is speaking about a Spiritual Seed, Children of Promise born out if God's Promise as Isaac was a Child of Promise.

All Believers, wheter jew or gentile are as Isaac was, a Child of Promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

All these Children will be born of the Spirit, by the Spirit of Promise, that evidences them as being Children of Promise as Isaac was !

Isaac was of the Spirit Gal 4:29

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This role model stuff is complete apostate garbage !

the "Seed" was thecoming messiah, yeshua!
And Abraham our father in the faith, shows us that we have ALWYS been saved by faith alone/grace alone, nothing to be added!

 

[savedbymercy]

Incorrect. Look at the word "HAD said" in Genesis 12:1-3 and you will see he was regenerated in Genesis 11 before he left UR of the chaldees with his Father to Haran. He was again reminded of the original command and promise in Haran after his father died.

He was regenerated before he heard the Gospel. According to scripture it was in Gen 12 when God Preached to Him the Gospel !

 

[The Biblicist]

He was regenerated before he heard the Gospel. According to scripture it was in Gen 12 when God Preached to Him the Gospel !

No, wrong on both accounts. You ASSUME it was Genesis 12 when God preached the Gospel to him because you correlate Galatians 3:8 with Genesis 12:3. However, both Genesis 15:7 and Genesis 12:1 and the words "HAD SAID" tell the reader that this discussion in Genesis 12:1-3 took place in Ur of the chaldees before he left for Haran and now it is being REPEATED again since his father died in Haran and God wanted him to complete the journey he started.

He was not regenerated BEFORE he heard the gospel but it was the effectual call of God through the gospel that regenerated him just as it is today (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:6; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:25; etc.).

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You ASSUME it was Genesis 12 when God preached the Gospel to him

No assumption, I base it upon the inspired word of God ! Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now the assumption is on you since you have no proof from scripture that God Preached the Gospel to him before then !