Michael Wrenn
New Member
It appears that you and I have different definitions of baptism in or by the Spirit. I believe that when a person comes to faith, he or she is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.
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A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles
- Thread starter evangelist-7
- Start date
It appears that you and I have different definitions of baptism in or by the Spirit. I believe that when a person comes to faith, he or she is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.
that is precisely my very point!
Is there any salvation OUTSIDE union with Christ?
Can a person be saved OUTSIDE this body of Christ? If so, then what does being in the body provide that was not provided by salvation outside of it?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
The Baptism in the Spirit has a stated beginning point - Acts 1:5
1. Is this baptism of the believer by the Spirit into a PHYSICAL denominational body or into a SPIRITUAL body = spiritual union with Christ?
2. If it is union with a PHYSICAL body at the point of faith then is it through water baptism?
3. If it is union with a SPIRITUAL body - the mystical body of Christ - then it is SPIRITUAL UNION WITH CHRIST.
4. Since it began on Pentecost - Acts 1:5 then there could be no spiritual union with Christ prior to Penetecost. Thus you have all believer previous to Pentecost OUTSIDE OF CHRIST.
5. Is there any salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ at any time?
Are you following me?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
At a respectful distance.
So, what is your position regarding the state of the apostles' souls before Pentecost?
At a respectful distance.
So, what is your position regarding the state of the apostles' souls before Pentecost?
had they been regenerated yet, or were they such at pentacost, when the Holy Spirit came in a brand new work/fashion?
In the Old Testament, prophets would be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, to teach and lead the people of God.
The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God was also AMONG the people, the Jews. God walked among the people, and He was not in all believers until Pentecost.
In the Old Testament, a person had to do many external things JUST TO WORSHIP GOD. They had to be ceremonially clean. They had many offerings to give, and they had dietary laws and the observance of special days.
That is how they had spiritual union with Christ. Now we have spiritual union with Christ when He lives inside our hearts.
Not all believers were indwelt by the Holy Spirit under Old Covenant, those annoited by Him were prophets/priests?kings, but under the new one ALL believers in yeshua now are!
You misread what I said.
I never said ALL were indwelt with the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament, the children of God had the Spirit of God NEAR them, for God walked AMONG them. God was also to be found in the tabernacle, and in the earthly temple.
The children of God had to make themselves ceremonially clean just to worship God!
This also shows Biblicist that not EVERYONE could have this relationship with God. Biblicist and others here claim that even the Gentiles could have a relationship with God in the Old Testament times, but that is not true. A person could not even go to the temple if they were not ceremonially clean. Gentiles could not go to the temple they were not circumcised.
Actually, the Nonevites repented abd belived in the jewish God by preaching of Jonah!
Even jesus remarked that the pagen Roman centurian had greater faith than ANY in isreal!
The scriptures say God did not kill them. How does that mean they obeyed the Law and became God's people the children of God?
Do not add or subtract to God’s word, nor lean to the left or to the right.
they did NOT obey the law, as it was NOT given to them! They repented and trusted in God and His wiord, same way we must today to be saved!
The Bible does NOT say they were God's children.
God walked among His children. God was with His children when they obeyed the law.
God was faithful to them Even WHEN they disobeyed Him!
same way that He is to us today!
What do you mean God was faithful to them?
God did not destroy them because of their repentance. That does not mean they became God’s children. God’s children were circumcised. God’s children had to obey the law.
MANY times the Lord had every right to judge his people, and to destroy them...
that he did not do that shows us how much more we are secured to not being rejected, for we are under a better/surer Covenant!
The Scriptures explicity state they "REPENTED" at the preaching of Jonah (Mt. 12) and that is the reason God did not destroy them. Now, what does "repentance" mean? And does God forgive those who repent before him? What is forgivenss in scripture but the "remission of sins"???
Jonah was a prophet and Peter says that "ALL the prophets gave witness that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" - Acts 10:43
Are you calling Peter a liar? Peter said "ALL" the prophets gave this witness but are you denying Jonah was a prophet and Jonah did not give this witness??
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When did it say also that they were rejudged again, or that they had to obey first?
evangelist-7
New Member
In the OT, NO believers had God's Spirit INSIDE of them ... NO indwelling at all!
Moriah said: In the Old Testament, prophets would be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, to teach and lead the people of God.
In the OT, almost ALWAYS God's Spirit came UPON His prophets ... as a very temporary ANOINTING!
(IMO, just twice did He go INSIDE instead of UPON).
Moriah also said: Do not add or subtract to God’s word, nor lean to the left or to the right.
Not only is her arithmetic poor, but so is her equilibrium!
.
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