What Did jesus mean" Upon This Rock, I Will Build my Church?"

[Moriah]

My point exactly! Paul demands he was justified BEFORE circumcision - Rom. 4:11

You made the mistake, Biblicist, and I have shown you your mistake.

Find anywhere at anytime I ever said circucmison was not a work!!! My whole argument rests solely upon the fact that it is a work and Abraham was justified "without works" and circumcison is precisely a work that he was justified WITHOUT.

You said it. You even elaborated that it is not a work in the Law of Moses, but it is!
You even say I said something I did not, and then you get a quote from me that STILL do NOT say what YOU say it does, but you pretend that it does, as if no one will catch on. I am not going through this nonsense with you.

You do not know what you are talking about and you certainly are misrepresenting my words. Prove you are not and quote me saying such things!

I have proven you wrong, just by the fact that you said I said something that I did not. I am not going to play this game with you, Biblicist. You do this in our debates. You start saying false accusations against me, and you say things I do not say, and then you make post after post after post to clutter the thread with nonsense.
YOU said I said Abraham was not justified before the WORK of Circumcision. You argued that Abraham lived before the works of the law.

 

[saturneptune]

My point exactly! Paul demands he was justified BEFORE circumcision - Rom. 4:11

Find anywhere at anytime I ever said circucmison was not a work!!! My whole argument rests solely upon the fact that it is a work and Abraham was justified "without works" and circumcison is precisely a work that he was justified WITHOUT.

You do not know what you are talking about and you certainly are misrepresenting my words. Prove you are not and quote me saying such things!

We have disagreed on some points, but your posts about the relationship between faith, grace, works and justification is excellent and easy to understand. There is no difference between James and Paul, or the OT and NT.

 

[Moriah]

We have disagreed on some points, but your posts about the relationship between faith, grace, works and justification is excellent and easy to understand. There is no difference between James and Paul, or the OT and NT.

Apostle Paul and Apostle James do NOT contradict each other, so stop speaking as if they do, or as if someone said they do. You misunderstand Paul.

Tell us, Saturneptune, was Abraham justified before he was circumcised?

Yes, Abraham was.

Tell us, Saturneptune, did Abraham obey God before he was circumcised?

Yes, Apostle Paul and Apostle James tell us that Abraham OBEYED God before circumcision.

So now, DHK, Biblicist, and you need to stop teaching that it is a heretical belief to say faith with actions is wrong!

James says faith without action is dead. It is NOT the saving kind of faith that you all teach.

 

[The Biblicist]

You made the mistake, Biblicist, and I have shown you your mistake.

Readers here is how Moriah responds when he is proven wrong and nowhere to go. I challenge him to provide the quotation to prove I said what he has charged and he can't so he just reasserts the SAME LIE!

QUOTE WHERE I MADE SUCH A MISTAKE or admit you are lying and you are indeed lying!

You said it. You even elaborated that it is not a work in the Law of Moses, but it is!

QUOTE WHERE I MADE SUCH A STATEMENT or admit you are lying and you are indeed lying!

What I said is that Abraham was justified BEFORE circumcison and BEFORE the Law of Moses was given (which included circumcision) and thus Abraham was justified WITHOUT obedience to the Law and especially circumstances.

 

[saturneptune]

Apostle Paul and Apostle James do NOT contradict each other, so stop speaking as if they do, or as if someone said they do. You misunderstand Paul.

Tell us, Saturneptune, was Abraham justified before he was circumcised?

Yes, Abraham was.

Tell us, Saturneptune, did Abraham obey God before he was circumcised?

Yes, Apostle Paul and Apostle James tell us that Abraham OBEYED God before circumcision.

So now, DHK, Biblicist, and you need to stop teaching that it is a heretical belief to say faith with actions is wrong!

James says faith without action is dead. It is NOT the saving kind of faith that you all teach.

I said they (Paul and James, and the Bible for that matter) agree. Can you read English? About Abraham, I do not care if he was justified before or after circumcision, as it makes no difference. He was justified by faith, not an outpatient procedure.

So now I see we are catagorizing types of faith. Lets see, there is saving faith, forgiving faith, and faith faith. One thing for sure, faith is a gift of the Lord. You have no idea what faith James is talking about. Works reflects whatever type of faith one has.

Now Moriah, say three hale Marys, play two games of ring around the rosary bush, get into a phone booth and tell your priest all about it.

 

[Moriah]

I said they (Paul and James, and the Bible for that matter) agree. Can you read English?

Can you?

About Abraham, I do not care if he was justified before or after circumcision, as it makes no difference. He was justified by faith, not an outpatient procedure.

I care about the Word of God.

So now I see we are catagorizing types of faith.

There is only one kind of saving faith, and it is faith with an action that is good. The other one is DEAD, but it is what you all are saying is the kind that saves.

Now Moriah, say three hale Marys, play two games of ring around the rosary bush, get into a phone booth and tell your priest all about it.

You are exposed for being so confused. Where do you get that I am a Catholic? lol

 

[The Biblicist]

Readers,

No quotation given by Moriah yet to support his accusations!

Readers here is how Moriah responds when he is proven wrong and nowhere to go. I challenge him to provide the quotation to prove I said what he has charged and he can't so he just reasserts the SAME LIE!

QUOTE WHERE I MADE SUCH A MISTAKE or admit you are lying and you are indeed lying!



QUOTE WHERE I MADE SUCH A STATEMENT or admit you are lying and you are indeed lying!

What I said is that Abraham was justified BEFORE circumcison and BEFORE the Law of Moses was given (which included circumcision) and thus Abraham was justified WITHOUT obedience to the Law and especially circumstances.

 

[Yeshua1]

No one denies that Christ's death was necessary for EVERYTHING that characterizes our personal salvation from regeneration, justification, progressive sanctification, entrance into heaven at death, resurrected glorified body and entrance into the eternal state after the resurrection. Each of these items are purchased by the blood of Christ and none of them are possible without redemption by his blood.

However, you don't believe this! You believe some aspects of personal salvation do not require the death of Christ and purchase by his blood and I can prove you don't believe every aspect of our salvation required the shed blood of Christ to purchase it!

1. Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith BEFORE THE CROSS
2. All those list in Hebrews 11 were SANCTIFIED by faith BEFORE THE CROSS
3. All those listed in Hebrews 11 WENT TO HEAVEN and are spirits of JUST (justified) men "MADE PERFECT."

If you were consistent you would have to deny that ANY ASPECT of salvation could be applied prior to the cross - regeneration as well as justification, as well as sanctification - walking by faith (Enoch walked with God) etc.

Furthermore, you don't care a hoot about Biblical context. You simply pick and choose what you please, jump here and there and pit one text against another text because you are a false teacher who rashly and perversly handle's the Word of God. That is your MO!

In context, all of these were SANCTIFIED BY FAITH as they WALKED BY FAITH. All of these were "JUST" men already JUSTIFIED by faith as was Abraham. All of these looked for a city ON EARTH whose builder and maker was God but never found that promise because it only occurs on the NEW EARTH in the NEW HEAVEN when the New Jerusalem COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN - Rev. 21:1-2. They along "WITH US" must wait for this promise to be fulfilled. They are waiting in heaven (Heb. 12:1, 23) as "JUST men" already "MADE PERFECT" in regard to their "spirits" but neither we or them have been "MADE PERFECT" in body and neither of us have yet to realize the CITY THEY LOOKED FOR on earth and that will not occur until they "WITH US" are glorified in body or "MADE PERFECT" spirit, soul and body and enter into the NEW EARTH in a NEW HEAVEN. So we are both waiting until:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


You couldn't recognize the truth if it stared you in the face.

Abraham did NOt though have the fulness of the Holy Spirit as we do under the new covenant, nor was he sealed with him, nor in the body of Christ as we are today, as we are now under the new Covenant inaugerated by Blood of jesus!

 

[Moriah]

Let the Reader see that Biblicist FALSELY accused me of saying Abraham was NOT justified before circumcision.
Then when I told Biblicist to show where I said such a thing, he quotes me, as you see here, BUT NOWHERE IN THAT QUOTE DO I SAY WHAT HE ACCUSES ME.

Abraham had to be circumcised, as did his sons and all the males in his household. The scriptures even speak about BEFORE ABRAHAM AND CIRCUMCISION. In Romans Paul says in Romans 4:10, “Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
Right there that should tell you it IS about the work of circumcision. - Moriah

Romans 4:9-12 is a complete repudiation that the work of circumcision was necessary to be justified. If this work is being repudiated as necessary for justification then ALL WORKS are being repudiated as necessary for justification or else Paul would not repudiate cirucmision as necessary for justification since it is unquestionably a command of God equal to any other commands of God.

 

[Moriah]

Abraham was justified BEFORE circumcision.

Circumcision IS a WORK.

The Bible explains that it is a work.

EVEN THOUGH Abraham was justified for having faith in God before he was circumcised, Abraham obeyed God.

Apostle Paul and Apostle James explain that BY FAITH Abraham's faith was made complete by WHAT HE DID.

Apostle James explains that faith without a good action is DEAD.

A DEAD FAITH is NOT THE SAVING FAITH THAT PEOPLE HERE CLAIM.

Believe and obey!

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham was justified BEFORE circumcision.

Circumcision IS a WORK.

The Bible explains that it is a work.

EVEN THOUGH Abraham was justified for having faith in God before he was circumcised, Abraham obeyed God.

Apostle Paul and Apostle James explain that BY FAITH Abraham's faith was made complete by WHAT HE DID.

Apostle James explains that faith without a good action is DEAD.

A DEAD FAITH is NOT THE SAVING FAITH THAT PEOPLE HERE CLAIM.

Believe and obey!

faith in jesus saves us, PERIOD, but the person saved will walk in the good works God has prepared for Him beforehand!

 

[Moriah]

faith in jesus saves us, PERIOD, but the person saved will walk in the good works God has prepared for Him beforehand!

Stop twisting what I say.

More importantly, stop twisting the word of God.

Even the demons have a reaction, as they believe there is One God.

FAITH WITHOUT ANY RIGHT ACTION IS DEAD. THAT IS THE WORD GOD.

 

[Catalyst]

I'm rather unorthodox here, but dang if it doesn't make more sense.

Matt 18:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, [fn8] Elijah; but still others, [fn9] Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He [!] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are [fn10] the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon [fn11] Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are [fn12] Peter, and upon this [fn13] rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth [fn14] shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [fn15] shall have been loosed in heaven."

The question went to the disciples, not to Peter. Peter spoke for the Disciples. Peter was a bit of a brownnoser. See the story of the rich young ruler for another example. Since Peter spoke for the group, Christ addressed him, same as you would if you asked the whole forum a question and one answered, you would speak to the forum, but address the speaker.

The highlighted above is the ROCK. That Christ is the Son of the Living God.

Ask yourself, would the Church work ok without Peter?

Would it work ok without CHRIST AS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD?

Whichever you feel is more important, there you find your rock. The keys were given to the disciples, those he addressed, not to peter specifically.

I know my RCC pals will disagree, and I'd love to debate / chat with them, but on a board like this, that would best be done in private, I think. Although I'm ok either way.

 

[saturneptune]

Matt 18:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, [fn8] Elijah; but still others, [fn9] Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He [!] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are [fn10] the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon [fn11] Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are [fn12] Peter, and upon this [fn13] rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth [fn14] shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [fn15] shall have been loosed in heaven."

The question went to the disciples, not to Peter. Peter spoke for the Disciples. Peter was a bit of a brownnoser. See the story of the rich young ruler for another example. Since Peter spoke for the group, Christ addressed him, same as you would if you asked the whole forum a question and one answered, you would speak to the forum, but address the speaker.

The highlighted above is the ROCK. That Christ is the Son of the Living God.

Ask yourself, would the Church work ok without Peter?

Would it work ok without CHRIST AS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD?

Whichever you feel is more important, there you find your rock. The keys were given to the disciples, those he addressed, not to peter specifically.

I know my RCC pals will disagree, and I'd love to debate / chat with them, but on a board like this, that would best be done in private, I think. Although I'm ok either way.

Your Roman Catholic buddies?? You mean you Roman Catholic siamese twins. By the way, you never provided evidence that the Baptist faith came out of the RCC.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Your Roman Catholic buddies?? You mean you Roman Catholic siamese twins. By the way, you never provided evidence that the Baptist faith came out of the RCC.

I challenged you to produce historical proof that the Baptists existed concomitant with the early church as you claim back to the time of Jesus, yet you've yet to do that either.

WM

 

[Yeshua1]

I challenged you to produce historical proof that the Baptists existed concomitant with the early church as you claim back to the time of Jesus, yet you've yet to do that either.

WM

can you prove by ANY credible non Catholic source that early church was the RCC of today, that there was a papacy, and that RCC doctrines were in place, such as venerating mary and the 'saints?"

 

[saturneptune]

I challenged you to produce historical proof that the Baptists existed concomitant with the early church as you claim back to the time of Jesus, yet you've yet to do that either.

WM

Since the RCC did not exist until about 500 AD, some church had to be sustaining the New Testement Church. Without copy and pasting all of the centuries of Catholic writings, look at it this way. Take a local Baptist church, then look at the RCC. Read the book of Acts, which comes closer to that model?

Maybe not in name, but some church of like faith and order to modern day Baptists, preserved the church before the RCC, and certainly during it. All the Reformation did was give the New Testement Church some allies. The RCC has always been from beginning to end, the exact opposite of the Church Christ established. It is basically an organization that collects offerings, gets richer, tells its members how to believe, and does nothing to nurture a relationship between a saved person and the Lord. Despite the RCC as a roadblock, many Catholics are saved and will be with the Lord in eternity. The only thing that makes the RCC look good is the Mormon church.

 

[Yeshua1]

Since the RCC did not exist until about 500 AD, some church had to be sustaining the New Testement Church. Without copy and pasting all of the centuries of Catholic writings, look at it this way. Take a local Baptist church, then look at the RCC. Read the book of Acts, which comes closer to that model?

Maybe not in name, but some church of like faith and order to modern day Baptists, preserved the church before the RCC, and certainly during it. All the Reformation did was give the New Testement Church some allies. The RCC has always been from beginning to end, the exact opposite of the Church Christ established. It is basically an organization that collects offerings, gets richer, tells its members how to believe, and does nothing to nurture a relationship between a saved person and the Lord. Despite the RCC as a roadblock, many Catholics are saved and will be with the Lord in eternity. The only thing that makes the RCC look good is the Mormon church.

yes! the early Christians had doctrines/practices that would be 'baptist like", and the Bishops/pastors among early fathers were definitly on the whole NOT whatwould be considered RCC! The RCC strated to get really going under origen and Augustine, and during time of Constatine!

 

[Catalyst]

Your Roman Catholic buddies?? You mean you Roman Catholic siamese twins. By the way, you never provided evidence that the Baptist faith came out of the RCC.

There was a Roman Catholic faith LONNNNNGGGGG before there were baptists. You are just being Pedantic if you deny that. And that's petty and petulant.

If you wanted a board where everyone would just agree with you and make you feel good about yourself, why not make your own Baptist group like the KKK did. Then they would all agree. You can be the grand donkey, or whatever you choose, dragon is already taken, and moose. So, if you just wish to get your rocks off bashing on me, knock yourself out. I don't have to buy tickets for this freak show, and free entertainment, while lower in quality is still entertainment.

Any of my RCC friends would tell you, I challenge them more than they have usually ever been challenged. That's because I took the time to understand why and how they believe what they believe, and can hit them with the really tough thoughts. Unlike you, I wasn't content parroting the same ole lemmingish cliches people before you have muttered.

BTW, No matter how much you puff your chest out, wrong is still wrong.

 

[Yeshua1]

There was a Roman Catholic faith LONNNNNGGGGG before there were baptists. You are just being Pedantic if you deny that. And that's petty and petulant.

If you wanted a board where everyone would just agree with you and make you feel good about yourself, why not make your own Baptist group like the KKK did. Then they would all agree. You can be the grand donkey, or whatever you choose, dragon is already taken, and moose. So, if you just wish to get your rocks off bashing on me, knock yourself out. I don't have to buy tickets for this freak show, and free entertainment, while lower in quality is still entertainment.

Any of my RCC friends would tell you, I challenge them more than they have usually ever been challenged. That's because I took the time to understand why and how they believe what they believe, and can hit them with the really tough thoughts. Unlike you, I wasn't content parroting the same ole lemmingish cliches people before you have muttered.

BTW, No matter how much you puff your chest out, wrong is still wrong.

this is a BAPTIST Board though, and this section is for other christians groups, so RCC does not fit right in here!