Then use the Word of God to answer truth, not to personally attack a person. If you cannot debate the position of the person, but can only resort to personal attack, what are you doing here?
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What Did jesus mean" Upon This Rock, I Will Build my Church?"
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Abraham was justified by believing and obeying God before the cross.
Only the blood of Jesus SHED ON THE CROSS reconciles ALL things, making peace through his blood. See Colossians 1:20.
They were not made perfect until Jesus shed his blood on the cross, see Colossians 1:20.
God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, see Ephesians 2:6.
Ephesians 1:10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
They were waiting for the city with FOUNDATIONS built by God.
Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
The Prophets, the Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone laid the foundation! True believers are being built into a spiritual house.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
There is a spiritual resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…
1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
Jesus’ blood makes us perfect. Jesus’ blood that was shed ON THE CROSS-, and not before, as you keep insisting.
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No man is justified by obedience. That is heresy.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
You have posted contrary to Scripture.
Col.1:20 was written after the cross. Those, like Abraham, lived before the cross. How was he justified?
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--If you don't believe the Scripture, what will you believe?
Notice the pronouns: "us," used twice. Who is he referring to? Paul and the Ephesian believers, in other words, NT saints. There is nothing there about OT saints.
What is the purpose of pasting all this Scripture here. These scattered verses have nothing to do with OT saints.
Don't put words in his mouth. That is not what he said. Here is what he said:
You didn't even address what he posted!!
You misunderstand Paul.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
Read what Peter says about people who misunderstand Paul about obeying.
Read what James says about Abraham, that his faith AND actions worked TOGETHER.
You do not believe that the Old Testament Saints had to go through Jesus!
Old Testament Saints must go through Jesus too.
Do not accuse me of things that I do not do. Biblicist says the Old Testament people were saved the same way we are.
Jesus’ blood makes us perfect. Jesus’ blood that was shed ON THE CROSS-, and not before, as you keep insisting.
Of course, I addressed it, it is not my fault you cannot see it.
Go back and read what I wrote. Consider carefully the scriptures I quoted.
Paul said he was justified "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:5-6) and the "works" he is speaking about are works that existed 430 years before JEWISHNESS and BEFORE circumcision was given to Abraham (Rom. 4:9-12). Hence, he is talking about "works of righteosness" as in Titus 3:5 "not by works of righeousness which we have done." Hence, you cannot pervert "without works" to meaan JEWISHNESS as there was no JEWISHNESS existent at the time Abraham was justified. You cannot say it refers to circumcision as circumcision did not exist when Abraham was justified by faith WITHOUT works.
Second, the person being justified is not only "without works" of righteousness but he is defined as "ungodly" not "godly."
Third, the kind of faith he was justified by is explicitly defined and then applied to us in Romans 3:21-23. It is a faith that DOES NOTHING but receives and rests upon the power of God to perform God's promise as in the birthing of Isaac. His body was "dead" and the womb of Sarah was "deadness" so they could not participate in or contribute ANYTHING to obtaining the promise received by faith.
Hence, Paul repudiates your claim entirely that he was justified by faith PLUS obedience!
Now, I already know your response because you have no ability to interpret scritpure by its context. Hence, you will simply ignore these contextual factors and RUN away from this contextual evidence, JUMP to another context and then PIT another scripture against these scriptures. That is your cultish mentality when it comes to handling God's Word.
Prove me wrong and deal with the evidence I put before you and shown from this context that my interpretations of these texts are wrong!
You are another one in the group who teaches no obedience. Shuddering is an action; even the demons have an action they do while they believe God is One.
James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
James says faith and actions work together, and that faith by itself is dead. Why do you keep teaching dead faith is saving faith?
James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
Why do you misconstrue Scripture? It already says in Romans 4:3 that Abraham was justified by faith. Why can't you just believe the Bible?
The two Scriptures in Hebrews 11, you quoted start with "by faith." You omit the truth of Romans 4:3. Abraham was saved by faith alone in the Ur of Chaldees long before any of those events you mentioned took place. Those events resulted from a life lived by faith and had nothing to do with salvation. Anyone reading your posts would have to come to the conclusion that you believe:
"You must be born again and again and again...." OR,
"you must be saved again and again and again..."
Is this your theology? It sounds like it.
I believe what the Bible teaches. Do you?
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
That is not what those Scriptures teach.
But the Scriptures teach this:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Do you believe that?
They are. They are saved by faith; the same way we are. You can read it here:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--He was saved by faith and by faith alone.
Now you are putting words in my mouth making false allegations, just as you did with Biblicist. I did not say that. I simply quoted what the Bible said, a verse you have a hard time believing. Here it is:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
No you didn't address it. You just gave your own opinion without addressing what he said.
I already did.
Here is a verse for you to memorize:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
saturneptune
New Member
There is no conflict between James and Paul. They are in perfect harmony, as is the whole Bible. We are justified by faith alone. Works is merely a byproduct of faith and evidence of it. Works has nothing to do with justification. There is no conflict between salvation in the OT and NT. It is the same God, and He operates the same way. No one in this thread is teaching no obedience. If there are no works to show, then there is no faith in the first place. Works or no works have nothing to do with justification. Not only was Abraham justified by faith, Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord.
The demons believing their is one God is like saying I believe Washington was the first President. It is a statement of knowledge. Saying I believe in Jesus Christ is a totally different and much deeper meaning. It means my entire being loves, worships and adores Him. It means I believe He is God, and in His finished work on the cross. It means everything I do should be to please Jesus.
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No way is there any conflict between James and Paul.
Are you another teacher that says to obey God is a belief worthy of condemnation?
Stop right there. I quoted DHK who said we are not to obey when we want to be saved. So stop with misleading others by saying things that are not true.
You contradict yourself. Your confusion is not the reality of the truth.
Answer plainly, would Noah be saved if he did not obey God and build the ark?
What do your feelings have to do with what I said about the demons?
I gave you scripture of what James says about faith and actions. I gave you scripture with James explaining that even demons believe and have an action. I understand this is hard for you to understand since your pastors have engrained into your head that you are to do nothing, but now you are being told the Truth, please consider carefully.
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I present contextual based facts that you are wrong and how do you respond?
1. Making accusations - "YOU ARE ANOTHER ONE that...." but no response to the evidence.
2. RUN from Romans 4 and JUMP to outside text and then PIT James 2 against Romans 4 - that is your MO on everything you do.
Deal with the evidence presented you from the context it is taken.
If I RAN with you and JUMPED outside the context we are discussing to your scripture you PIT against the scripture we were discussiing it would only result in the very same MO by you when I point out the contextual factors in James 2 that repudiates your use of it!
I am not RUNNING from Romans 4 and JUMPING out of this context to another text (James 2). Deal with the evidence that I presented and show from the immediate context where I am wrong IF YOU CAN?
That is not true what you say. I gave you three scriptures and explained what they mean, and explain how it proves your beliefs wrong.
I do not run from any of the scriptures. I love explaining scriptures that Calvinists, Lutherans, and others have been preaching wrong for centuries. I love it.
Just because you say someone does not do something, that does not make is so. You prove you resort to personal attacks, just look at this post you wrote right here and now. It is ANOTHER post just about personal attacks.
I have already explained it scripture by scripture. If I reposted and put it in your face again, you still would deny it.
Lets try this again! You obviously did not understand my last post at all. Don't respond to these words until you read the rest of this post or you will make a fool out of yourself.
1. I presented you with contextual based data from Romans 4 to prove my points but you responded by personal attack (as seen below) rather than dealing with the evidence I presented:
2. Instead of pointing out from the context of the scriptures being used (Romans 4) you ignore that context, ignore all the contextual evidence from that context but rather RUN from this context (Romans 4) and JUMP to another context (James 2) and then PIT James 2 against the contextual based evidence I presented from Romans 4. Below is proof that you did the RUN, JUMP and PIt James 2 against Romans 4
Do you now see what I mean? YOu did not deal with the evidence presented but IGNORED IT and then did you RUN, JUMP and PIT routine by going to James 2 BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT RESPOND TO THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED FROM ROMANS 4 because if you could you would not have IGNORED it and jumped to James.
1. I presented you with contextual based data from Romans 4 to prove my points but you responded by personal attack (as seen below) rather than dealing with the evidence I presented:
2. Instead of pointing out from the context of the scriptures being used (Romans 4) you ignore that context, ignore all the contextual evidence from that context but rather RUN from this context (Romans 4) and JUMP to another context (James 2) and then PIT James 2 against the contextual based evidence I presented from Romans 4. Below is proof that you did the RUN, JUMP and PIt James 2 against Romans 4
Do you now see what I mean? YOu did not deal with the evidence presented but IGNORED IT and then did you RUN, JUMP and PIT routine by going to James 2 BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT RESPOND TO THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED FROM ROMANS 4 because if you could you would not have IGNORED it and jumped to James.
saturneptune
New Member
It takes about five minutes to figure out you do not have a clue. DHK did not say or mean that salvation was a free license to sin. You do not understand the relationship between grace, faith, and works.
You are equating demons knowing there is one God (head knowledge) with one believing that Jesus Christ is Savior (heart total commitment to the Lord). I do not know if you are playing word games or if you just do not get it.
You have no ideas what our pastors have taught us. Basically, the taught us to read Scripture and figure it out for ourselves, unlike the Catholic Church that you spend so much time defending.
Can you keep your personal opinion about me to yourself? You are wrong in your assumptions about me. Try to talk about doctrine and not about how you feel about me.
You are wrong, I understand your beliefs and DHK’s, also Calvin and Luther’s beliefs.
What you speak is something you read from one of your teachers. No, I am not equating demons knowing there is one God (head knowledge) with one believing that Jesus Christ is Savior (heart total commitment to the Lord). What you speak about me is ridiculous, and so is it your reasoning about what James is explaining. Even the demons believe and have a reaction to what they believe, yet DHK, Biblicist, and you teach a reaction in the positive would be impossible and even a heretical belief.
I am not playing word games. Did you ever think that you are the one who just does not get it?
I do know what your pastors have taught, and where do you get that I defend the Catholic Church? You are all confused.
He ignores any evidence that contradicts his position and basically just reasserts what he believes regardless of the evidence presented. It does not matter how much scriptural evidence you present, his mind is already made up and no amount of Biblical evidence will change his mind.
For example, it is so obvious that Paul is repudiating the idea that circumcision was necessary to justify Abraham in Romans 4:11 but Moriah comes right back and demands that circumcision was necessary for Abraham to be justified when Paul explicitly denies this when he says:
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Paul not only asserts he ALREADY "HAD" been justifeid WITHOUT circumcison but God purposely justified him WITHOUT circumcision IN ORDER THAT "he might be the father of ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE, THOUGH THEY BE NOT CIRUCMICISED;"
Can't get it much clearer than that! However, watch Moriah twist and pervert the words of Paul and make him say the very opposite!
Where have I ever said Abraham was NOT justified before circumcision? Why
do you keep speaking untruths?
Abraham was justified by faith and obeying God before the works of
circumcision.
Apostle James and Apostle Paul both tell us this.
Abraham had to be circumcised, as did his sons and all the males in his household. The scriptures even speak about BEFORE ABRAHAM AND CIRCUMCISION. In Romans Paul says in Romans 4:10, “Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
Right there that should tell you it IS about the work of circumcision. - Moriah
Romans 4:9-12 is a complete repudiation that the work of circumcision was necessary to be justified. If this work is being repudiated as necessary for justification then ALL WORKS are being repudiated as necessary for justification or else Paul would not repudiate cirucmision as necessary for justification since it is unquestionably a command of God equal to any other commands of God.
Where do I say Abraham was justified before circumcision? I do not. I was explaining to you that circumcision is a work, because you said it was NOT.
You have been proven wrong, and I have shown your error. You should apologize.
lol...Is that possible for you?
My point exactly! Paul demands he was justified BEFORE circumcision - Rom. 4:11
Find anywhere at anytime I ever said circucmison was not a work!!! My whole argument rests solely upon the fact that it is a work and Abraham was justified "without works" and circumcison is precisely a work that he was justified WITHOUT.
You do not know what you are talking about and you certainly are misrepresenting my words. Prove you are not and quote me saying such things!