From the no man can come unto me thread

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast posted...

AIC....
meet the apostle Paul;
12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

Very good. you posted...that ..one...isolated...scripture...very well.

But, as I am assuming you know, we are to take into consideration the whole councle of the scriptures... as scripture should not usually be interpreted in isolation, but with the entierety of the scriptures in view.

Its just the better way to go.

And when we take into consideration the whole of the scriptures, your view ends up coming up wanting.

 

[OldRegular]

But, as I am assuming you know, we are to take into consideration the whole councle of the scriptures... as scripture should not usually be interpreted in isolation, but with the entierety of the scriptures in view.

Very true. Sadly "freewillers" deny much of the whole counsel of Scripture. The Doctrines of Grace are consistent with all of Scripture. You "freewillers" seem to be unable to grasp either the whole of Scripture or the whole of Salvation!

In Salvation there is:
Election,
the New Birth or Regeneration,
Union with Jesus Christ,
Conversion including Faith and Repentance,
Pardon,
Justification,
Adoption,
Sanctification,
Perseverance, and
Glorification.

These are not necessarily in chronological order with the exception of Election, the New Birth, and Glorification! All you "freewillers" talk about is "by my free will I believed", denying the Word of God!

 

[Winman]

Very true. Sadly "freewillers" deny much of the whole counsel of Scripture. The Doctrines of Grace are consistent with all of Scripture. You "freewillers" seem to be unable to grasp either the whole of Scripture or the whole of Salvation!

In Salvation there is:
Election,
the New Birth or Regeneration,
Union with Jesus Christ,
Conversion including Faith and Repentance,
Pardon,
Justification,
Adoption,
Sanctification,
Perseverance, and
Glorification.

These are not necessarily in chronological order with the exception of Election, the New Birth, and Glorification! All you "freewillers" talk about is "by my free will I believed", denying the Word of God!

Well, there you go folks, Old Regular believes a person is regenerated or spiritually alive before he believes and is justified. This would be a person who is spiritually alive, and dead in trespasses and sins at the same time!

We are quickened when we believe and our sins are forgiven.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The phrase "having forgiven you all trespasses" is defining what "quickened" means.

Being quickened or regenerated is when your sins are forgiven you, and you are no longer dead in trespasses and sins. No one can be quickened until he believes and his sins are forgiven.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Until you believe, you remain in your sins, and you will die in your sins. No person can be quickened, regenerated, born again, made spiritually alive, etc... until you first believe and your sins are forgiven.

Calvinists understand scripture in the EXACT REVERSE of what they say.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast posted...



Very good. you posted...that ..one...isolated...scripture...very well.

But, as I am assuming you know, we are to take into consideration the whole councle of the scriptures... as scripture should not usually be interpreted in isolation, but with the entierety of the scriptures in view.

Its just the better way to go.

And when we take into consideration the whole of the scriptures, your view ends up coming up wanting.

In this case AIC...you posted exactly the opposite of what God says.You cannot just dismiss it.
Or you can dismiss it and post error:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Now that correction has been offered....you should respond by saying...well that verse is very clear, I need to look at this more than I have.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

You posted...

Well, there you go folks, Old Regular believes a person is regenerated or spiritually alive before he believes and is justified. This would be a person who is spiritually alive, and dead in trespasses and sins at the same time!

Yep. That just about sums it up.

 

[Winman]

Winman...

You posted...

Yep. That just about sums it up.

They just don't get that their view is logically impossible.

 

[OldRegular]

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The phrase "having forgiven you all trespasses" is defining what "quickened" means.

You are consistent Winman but consistently wrong. Quickened means "made alive" as modern translations show.

Calvinists understand scripture in the EXACT REVERSE of what they say.

You folks need to coordinate better. On another thread InTheLight said:

Yep, Calvinists are much smarter than all other people. :BangHead:

But then he started banging his head against the wall. Acted . Don't know if he was ashamed or envious!

Nothing to be ashamed of though!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIC,
Okay....posting scripture now we are getting somewhere.....and yet...what do we see here????
Quote:
When Joshua challenged the people to "choose you this day whom you will serve,"5 he was addressing individuals who were free to make a moral decision.

No one denies that men make choices. They are responsible to choose.Quote:
Man Possesses Free Will

This is no place made clearer than in Matthew 23:37, but you were not willing!" The Bible teaches conclusively and emphatically that man has free will.

The bible teaches than man has a will. Self will.It is not free,but bound.
Those Jesus spoke of here are described as those who were not willing
That does not prove mans will is free....but bound. Jesus was willing, they were not.
God's Will Can Be Rejected

As the passages cited above teach, not only does man possess free will, but he can actually exercise this free will in a way that defies God's will. In other words, although God is Sovereign Ruler, He does not always get everything He wants.

This is an unscriptural and evil statement.
To the Calvinists, such a statement is totally unthinkable and completely contrary to their concept of God's sovereignty.

Ironically he has this correct.39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.




3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Again, in 2 Peter 3:9, it is plainly stated that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

It actually plainly does not say that
These verses do not teach it. Once again 2 pet 3:9 completely misquoted out of context is always a disaster.

If, as the Calvinists claim, God decrees everything that happens,

Scripture proclaims this..cals just believe it

Quote:
and if, as the apostle Peter claims, God is not willing that any should perish, then all mankind will ultimately be saved. But even Calvinists reject the idea of Universalism.

Yes....because they understand the covenant of grace correctly.They do not abuse this verse.

Quote:
What, then, is their solution? Simply this: They must come to understand that Calvinism is not just anti-scriptural, which is certainly bad enough, but is anti-God as well.

This writers lack of ability to understand scripture leads him to make this sad claim against the brethren

Quote:
Calvin's god (with a little 'g') is not the God (with a big 'G') who has revealed Himself in the Bible. Calvin's god, apart from anything the creature may or may not do, predestines some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation. However, the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible actually pleads with His creatures to obey His preceptive will so they can be saved. This God, as opposed to Calvin's god, "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."6

Now he denies the biblical God in no uncertein terms.he draws the battlelines
How sad to come to this tragic error.

Quote:
When men begin to say that God can force a man to freely do His will, they are talking meaningless nonsense

.

His folly continues,,,God makes men willing...and then we have this also;Quote:
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
[/.

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

This King had to learn about the doctrines of grace...he had to learn who was in absolute control...some here need to eat grass

Quote:
Finally, even God could not make man free and not free at the same time in the same way. In order for man to be free, God had to give him the opportunity to rebel.

This is his own idea,and carnal philosophy.Scripture does not say this

Quote:
God did not want his servants to serve Him because they are forced to do so. He wants those who will serve Him to do so freely, willingly accepting His instructions and counsel. He wants a relationship with His creatures based on mutual affection and love, and not because of some kind of force. The Almighty God, if He so desired, certainly had the power to bridle His creatures, forcefully manipulating their minds and hearts and turning them into robots (or mules), so that they are forced to do His will. But if He did this, He would not be able to achieve His purpose of developing free relationships, like the one He desired with David, with His creatures. He wants all men to repent and enter a free love-relationship with Himself. If He forced them to do this, as Calvinists allege, their allegiance could not be freely given, that is, they would no longer be men but mules. God, who made man in His own image, wants him to be conformed to the image of His Son.9 Unless man is a free moral agent, this simply cannot be done!

he has a needy god...when he denied the biblical God earlier, thats all that is left

Man's free moral agency is a unique gift from God Almighty.

Moral agency is not the same as the will being free

But for many, and this includes Calvinists, the opposite is true. As the secular philosopher J. L. Mackie says, "There is a fundamental difficulty in the notion of an omnipotent God creating men with free will, for if men's wills are really free this must mean that even God cannot control them, that is, that God is no longer omnipotent."10 In his book, The Inexhaustible God, Royce Gruenler says that man's free will, which necessitates a future that is open and indefinite, is "logically incompatible with the doctrine of a sovereign God."

[/QUOTE]

This is wickedness and an abomonation.A direct statement of rebellion against the biblical God

Quote:
11 In other words, Calvinists believe that if man has free will, then God is actually impotent. . At this point, suffice it to say that it is God's foreknowledge which permits Him to maintain complete control of His world in spite of man's free will, because foreknowledge gives God the option of either permitting or preventing man's planned, free will choices,.

His little god has to look and see what will happen and adjust to man.Horrendous!!

Therefore, man's free will does not render God impotent. Nevertheless, it does, in fact, limit Him

.

Again....sorry to hear about his god and his problems...maybe he can get some therapy?lol.Sounds like the God who Elijah mocked??
Quote:
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

But if God is really limited, then how can He continue to be omnipotent? Are not these two concepts mutually exclusive? Only in the mind of the determinists! . Therefore, if God, of His own free will, chooses to create creatures with free moral agency, and in order to do so, He must limit Himself, such self-limitations are not a denigration of His omnipotence, as the determinists think, but are, instead, a powerful demonstration of it, which is exactly the point I made at the beginning of this subsection.

In order to insure man's autonomy, God, of His own free will, was willing to pay a tremendous price. Although He did not have to do so, the Almighty God was willing to limit Himself in relation to His creation.

Is there no end to this madness?..... I hope you did not read this AIC!

Quickly...edit and delete this link before anyone sees it __________________

 

[percho]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
V-14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
V-1,2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, the tree of life, which bare twelve fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Lev. 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; (The seventh of seven holy convocations, sabbath of feasts of the LORD.)

Was there any significance in that this which Jesus spoke on the last day, that great of the feast relative to whom and when it would apply. Please bear with me.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ezekiel 37:21,22,27 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things. (Notice they seek both the Lord and the Gentiles upon whom his name is called) (Joel 2:32 says the same thing.) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (Who are they?)
Lev. 23:34,35 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month the feast of tabernacles seven days unto the LORD. (On the first day an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
The sixth holy convocation, sabbath of feasts of the LORD.)

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up. Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; (the last trump) and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Lev. 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first [day] of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
(the fourth holy convocation, sabbath of feasts of the LORD.)

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:16 So then not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Who are these?) Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Lev. 23:15,16,17 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; the firstfruits unto the LORD. (Day of Pentecost the feast of firstfruits to take out a people for my name.)
V-21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. (The third holy convocation, sabbath of feasts of the LORD.)

There is a reason even for us for the feasts of the LORD.


God will do the calling and the saving in his due time. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Ephesians 1:9,10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:


BTW I do not think Calvin understood the above either. I grew up Presbyterian and presently Great Commission Baptist (Ha) about 30 years each but do not consider myself Calvinist. Electionist maybe.

 

[Winman]

You are consistent Winman but consistently wrong. Quickened means "made alive" as modern translations show.

And what makes a man dead? His sin. The wages of sin is death. It is the removal of one's sins that makes one alive. You cannot seem to grasp that until your sins are forgiven you are dead in sins, therefore no man can be spiritually alive until he believes, as we are justified by faith. Therefore faith must precede regeneration, being quickened, born again, etc...

You folks need to coordinate better. On another thread InTheLight said:

But then he started banging his head against the wall. Acted . Don't know if he was ashamed or envious!

Nothing to be ashamed of though!:smilewinkgrin:

He was being sarcastic. You fellas just THINK that you are smarter than everyone else. Half the Calvinists here do not even know how to use the quote feature, even after being here several years.

 

[percho]

Isa. 59:1,2 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

To whom and when did this verse apply?

In principle did it apply the moment Adam sinned? What about when Cain killed his brother? How about three days before it rained?

What will be the next big thing Jesus does? Will it be resurrect and change the people that make up the church?

What will take place after that? The marriage supper of the Lamb and then I would assume the battle of Armageddon?

Then what will be the next big thing?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, there you go folks, Old Regular believes a person is regenerated or spiritually alive before he believes and is justified. This would be a person who is spiritually alive, and dead in trespasses and sins at the same time!

We are quickened when we believe and our sins are forgiven.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The phrase "having forgiven you all trespasses" is defining what "quickened" means.

Being quickened or regenerated is when your sins are forgiven you, and you are no longer dead in trespasses and sins. No one can be quickened until he believes and his sins are forgiven.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Until you believe, you remain in your sins, and you will die in your sins. No person can be quickened, regenerated, born again, made spiritually alive, etc... until you first believe and your sins are forgiven.

Calvinists understand scripture in the EXACT REVERSE of what they say.

Where does the faith to even believe in jesus come from though?

And how can a sinner whose very nature is to oppose God and be at war with Him freely come to Him and submit?

 

[OldRegular]

Where does the faith to even believe in jesus come from though?

And how can a sinner whose very nature is to oppose God and be at war with Him freely come to Him and submit?

Freewill cannot answer!

 

[Winman]

Where does the faith to even believe in jesus come from though?

And how can a sinner whose very nature is to oppose God and be at war with Him freely come to Him and submit?

Faith is not something magical that floats around and lands on some folks. Faith is a judgment. If I asked you right now to name three persons you fully trust, you could easily do so. You might say your parents, your siblings, your best friend, and of course Jesus.

Likewise, if I asked you to name three persons you cannot trust, you could probably name some persons you would not let in your house, or leave alone with your kids and wife. Faith is a judgment based upon reasoning.

Why do you trust your parents and your friends? Because you know them well and know they love you. You know they would never do anything intentionally to hurt you. They would not steal from you or lle to you.

Likewise, why do we mistrust some persons? Sometimes it is because we do not know the person, and therefore are not sure we can trust them or not. Very few people would loan their car or money to a perfect stranger.

Sometimes we mistrust a person because we know them to be untrustworthy. Perhaps they are a known thief or a liar.

So, trust or faith is based upon rational reasoning. There is some emotion involved, a person will tend to trust someone they are in love with, even when sometimes the other person should not be trusted. But this again is based on reasoning, a person will rationalize away warning signs that should alert them because they want to think the best of the person.

But faith is not some mysterious essence, and it is not something you can give to someone else.

Why do I trust the scriptures? Because they have a ring of truth to them that cannot be denied. The scriptures reveal our own hearts to us in a way that all men know to be true. The scriptures speak directly to the deepest part of our inner man. This is why I trust the scriptures. A man can resist the conviction of the scriptures, but convicted he is. It cannot be denied.

Faith is a judgment.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Even animals have faith, anyone who has ever owned or had experience with animals knows they trust some people and are fearful of others. Jesus himself showed that animals have faith.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

Sheep are known to trust their shepherd and to be fearful of strangers.

So, it gets a little ridiculous when Calvinists make dumb arguments that men do not have free will, when the scriptures say they do (Lev 1:3) and that men do not have the ability to believe.

You have to deny reality to be a Calvinist. It is obvious to everyone that men have free will and the ability to believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

Freewill cannot answer!

To get to their position, one MUST deny original Sin, and postulate that we still have free will as Adam once did!

that the fall merely wounded/hurt/damged, not killed spiritually!

 

[Winman]

To get to their position, one MUST deny original Sin, and postulate that we still have free will as Adam once did!

that the fall merely wounded/hurt/damged, not killed spiritually!

Most non-Cals DO hold to original sin, but I do not. And I have showed numerous verses, especially Ecc 7:29 many times to support my position.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The scriptures say God has made man upright, and the word "they" points right back to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

The scriptures say the wages of sin is death, but Original Sin denies this. Original Sin teaches that the wages of being conceived is death. It denies scripture.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Jacob and Esau were alive in their mother's womb when this was said of them, and the scriptures say they had done no evil, they had committed no sin.

Yet you say they are dead in sin. If so, the wages of sin is not death, the wages of being conceived is death, a direct contradiction of scripture.

Oh, I know, you will say they inherited Adam's sin. This is also contrary to scripture as God himself said every man shall die for his own sin. God said the son shall not die for the sin of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Original Sin teaches that we all bear the sin of Adam, but God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa. The soul that sins shall die, every man dies when he knowingly and willingly sins.

Most non-Cals hold to Original Sin, I would say they should carefully reexamine scripture and see if this is true. Original Sin came out of the corrupt teachings of the Catholic church, especially Augustine. Calvin simply followed the teachings of Augustine who taught many heresies like Infant Baptism and Purgatory. Not exactly who you want to learn your theology from.

 

[Amy.G]

Likewise, why do we mistrust some persons? Sometimes it is because we do not know the person, and therefore are not sure we can trust them or not. Very few people would loan their car or money to a perfect stranger.

And how does the unregenerate, unbeliever "know" Christ? How can he trust someone he doesn't know?

So, trust or faith is based upon rational reasoning.

Faith in Christ is not rational. Believing God manifested Himself in a human body is not rational. Believing He rose from the dead is not rational. It doesn't fit with the physical laws of nature and therefore the natural man cannot understand it nor believe it.
The gospel is 100% spiritual and can only be believed through the spirit of man. But man's spirit is dead and incapable of grasping spiritual things. Therefore, God must open his eyes, or regenerate him in order for him to "see" Christ for who He IS.

Why do I trust the scriptures? Because they have a ring of truth to them that cannot be denied.

You trust the scripture because you have the Spirit of God in you. You are spiritually discerning God's word. The unsaved do not trust the scriptures nor do they understand them or even want to understand. To them it is foolishness.

Even animals have faith, anyone who has ever owned or had experience with animals knows they trust some people and are fearful of others.

That isn't faith. That's experience. Can an animal place it's faith in Christ?

 

[Winman]

And how does the unregenerate, unbeliever "know" Christ? How can he trust someone he doesn't know?

I don't know about you, but I heard of Jesus through the scriptures, and the preaching of the scriptures.

Did Jesus appear to you like he did to Paul? If he did, I would love to hear about it.

You can learn about people from hearing about them. I absolutely do not trust President Obama. Why? Because of what I have heard of his life and his political views. On the other hand, I believe I would have trusted George Washington very much, as most accounts say he was a very good and noble man. So a person can trust someone according to what they have heard of him.

Faith in Christ is not rational. Believing God manifested Himself in a human body is not rational. Believing He rose from the dead is not rational. It doesn't fit with the physical laws of nature and therefore the natural man cannot understand it nor believe it.
The gospel is 100% spiritual and can only be believed through the spirit of man. But man's spirit is dead and incapable of grasping spiritual things. Therefore, God must open his eyes, or regenerate him in order for him to "see" Christ for who

Faith in Christ is rational, at least to me. I can look around me at the universe and see order and purpose in it's design. It is obvious to me that a super intelligent person created the universe, even though I cannot see him. So it is perfectly rational to believe in a supernatural God who created all things.

In addition, all men have the law written on their hearts. We may all be sinners and depraved, but all men know what good is, and all men instinctively know that God is good. When I read the scriptures, I can see the God it describes is perfectly Holy and Just. He is Righteous, he is Good. By my own God-given conscience and innate sense of right and wrong I can identify the God of the scriptures as the true God.

But I tell you what, a God that would create men for the sole purpose of destroying them for his own glory is not what the law written on my heart tells me what is true. Any sensible man is immediately offended by this view. We are all offended when a parent would abuse or kill his own child, yet many believe God to be a tyrant who kills his own children for his own glory and pleasure. Horrendous to say the very least.

Maybe this is how you conceive God, but it is not how I conceive God. My God loves all his creation and wants every man to be saved. He loved all men so much he offered his own Son to die for their sins to save them.

So, we do not believe in the same God at all.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Hebrews 11
Faith in Action

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

We do not have to see to believe or understand to believe. We are to believe for Christ to open our eyes to what we do not see. We are to trust in the witnesses over our own understanding. Who is the disciple's. I did't know how or what to believe until I listened and learned from Christ

Acts 10:41
He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

 

[Amy.G]

But I tell you what, a God that would create men for the sole purpose of destroying them for his own glory is not what the law written on my heart tells me what is true. Any sensible man is immediately offended by this view. We are all offended when a parent would abuse or kill his own child, yet many believe God to be a tyrant who kills his own children for his own glory and pleasure. Horrendous to say the very least.

What about all the people that go to hell? Didn't God create them? No matter what side we're on, it is indisputable that people (God's creation) are punished eternally in hell. Why did God create them knowing full well they would end up in hell?

So, we do not believe in the same God at all.

I don't think that comment was necessary.