"Targeting" and Soteriology

[Skandelon]

I just read an article on a church leaders web site which talked about the value of reaching out to men. They used this stat:

"If a child comes to Christ first, there is a 6% chance the entire family will. If a wife/mother comes to Christ first, there is an 18% chance the entire family will. If the husband/father comes to Christ first, there is a 94% chance the entire family will. "​

How does your soterilogical view affect how you respond to a point like this? And if this stat is true what does that say about the doctrine of election in particular? If salvation is purely based upon God's unconditional choice prior to creation what difference would one's father coming to faith make and why would such stats show evidence of such relational influence? This stat is only one of many which present this type of question.

What say you?

 

[Luke2427]

I just read an article on a church leaders web site which talked about the value of reaching out to men. They used this stat:

"If a child comes to Christ first, there is a 6% chance the entire family will. If a wife/mother comes to Christ first, there is an 18% chance the entire family will. If the husband/father comes to Christ first, there is a 94% chance the entire family will. "​

How does your soterilogical view affect how you respond to a point like this? And if this stat is true what does that say about the doctrine of election in particular? If salvation is purely based upon God's unconditional choice prior to creation what difference would one's father coming to faith make and why would such stats show evidence of such relational influence? This stat is only one of many which present this type of question.

What say you?

The term "unconditional" can be misinterpreted to mean "arbitrary."

That interpretation does not represent the reality of the biblical teaching of election.

The idea of "unconditional" means that election is not conditioned upon the acts of sinful man toward God.

God's election is conditioned in the sense that his election of individuals springs from a desire within God.

In other words, there is a REASON why God elects to save the one's he elects to save. He doesn't save people at random.

There is an end in mind for each person he elects to save.

Therefore, knowing that God always intended for men to be leaders of the home, the church and society it is not at all surprising to find that God elects to save families led by men that God has elected to save.

If God has a purpose for saving the people he saves and if one of those purposes is to establish a Kingdom upon the earth with a hierarchical structure, then you would expect God to elect and save in exactly the way that the stat shows.

 

[Van]

No matter how absurd an explanation my appear, it will be posted by Calvinists in defense of their doctrine.

We are influenced by those we love, and so someone who rejects God brings that consequence, not only to themselves, but to those they love. Calvinism teaches there is no consequence to others if we sin, because everybody is going to Hades and Gehenna anyway, unless God enables belief via irresistible grace.

Think about the father in a lost family who hears from their friendly Calvinist friend that they were either saved or damned before creation and nothing he can do will alter that foreordained outcome for him and his loved ones. Compare that with "seek ye first the kingdom of God."

 

[Luke2427]

No matter how absurd an explanation my appear, it will be posted by Calvinists in defense of their doctrine.

We are influenced by those we love, and so someone who rejects God brings that consequence, not only to themselves, but to those they love. Calvinism teaches there is no consequence to others if we sin, because everybody is going to Hades and Gehenna anyway, unless God enables belief via irresistible grace.

God uses means to save people. Calvinists believe this.

God uses people we love, circumstances, etc, etc, etc...

Think about the father in a lost family who hears from their friendly Calvinist friend that they were either saved or damned before creation and nothing he can do will alter that foreordained outcome for him and his loved ones. Compare that with "seek ye first the kingdom of God."

Calvinists, Arminians and most "non-cals" alike believe that everyone's eternal destiny was determined in eternity past.

The question that divides us is not whether or not this is so. It is "based on what?"

Did God determine to save people in eternity past based on what he foresaw that they would do?

Did God determine to save people in eternity past based upon his own purposes?

Most Christians BELIEVE in predestination. It's in the Bible.

What is in question is "on what BASIS does God predestinate?"

 

[Iconoclast]

I just read an article on a church leaders web site which talked about the value of reaching out to men. They used this stat:

"If a child comes to Christ first, there is a 6% chance the entire family will. If a wife/mother comes to Christ first, there is an 18% chance the entire family will. If the husband/father comes to Christ first, there is a 94% chance the entire family will. "​

How does your soterilogical view affect how you respond to a point like this? And if this stat is true what does that say about the doctrine of election in particular? If salvation is purely based upon God's unconditional choice prior to creation what difference would one's father coming to faith make and why would such stats show evidence of such relational influence? This stat is only one of many which present this type of question.

What say you?

As Luke indicates.The election of Godly fathers leads to a godly marraige, which leads to godly seed. Godly parents obey God and live and teach their offspring abouty God's covenant promises:

14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth

God very often has worked through families.....godly families who prayerfully obey him.

God is not dependant on statistical probability...but on His own Divine will and purpose.

The Godly parents who have an ungodly neighbor ,will let them know that God will save a muiltitude of sinners IN Christ. At a point in time they will be enabled by God to repent and believe the gospel.
If that ungodly neighbor has not repented yet :wavey:, he should fall on his face and seek God for mercy.

 

[MorseOp]

I fully expect certain critics of Calvinism to refer to it as absurd. The question is whether Luke's response actually is absurd. I do not believe that it is. The idea of a covenant family was first established by God in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12-17). Salvation was found within God's covenant people, not exclusively, but generally. By "within" I mean that the message to love and serve the LORD was generally found within God's covenant people. The patriarchal structure of the covenant nation of Israel was also established by God. With the coming of the New Covenant salvation was found in Christ alone (Solus Christus). While Israel was no longer the source of spiritual truth, God's design of a covenant people did not disappear.

Acts 2:39 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 16:31 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

The family unit was designed by God. Father's are supposed to introduce their children to God.

Psalm 78:5-7 5 For He established a testimony in Jacob And appointed a law in Israel, Which He commanded our fathers That they should teach them to their children, 6 That the generation to come might know, even the children yet to be born, That they may arise and tell them to their children, 7 That they should put their confidence in God And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments,

Is it at all absurd that God chooses to call His elect out of Christian families? If so, may that absurdity abound!

 

[Iconoclast]

I fully expect certain critics of Calvinism to refer to it as absurd. The question is whether Luke's response actually is absurd. I do not believe that it is. The idea of a covenant family was first established by God in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12-17). Salvation was found within God's covenant people, not exclusively, but generally. By "within" I mean that the message to love and serve the LORD was generally found within God's covenant people. The patriarchal structure of the covenant nation of Israel was also established by God. With the coming of the New Covenant salvation was found in Christ alone (Solus Christus). While Israel was no longer the source of spiritual truth, God's design of a covenant people did not disappear.

Acts 2:39 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 16:31 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

The family unit was designed by God. Father's are supposed to introduce their children to God.

Psalm 78:5-7 5 For He established a testimony in Jacob And appointed a law in Israel, Which He commanded our fathers That they should teach them to their children, 6 That the generation to come might know, even the children yet to be born, That they may arise and tell them to their children, 7 That they should put their confidence in God And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments,

Is it at all absurd that God chooses to call His elect out of Christian families? If so, may that absurdity abound!

:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

I fully expect certain critics of Calvinism to refer to it as absurd. The question is whether Luke's response actually is absurd. I do not believe that it is. The idea of a covenant family was first established by God in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12-17). Salvation was found within God's covenant people, not exclusively, but generally. By "within" I mean that the message to love and serve the LORD was generally found within God's covenant people. The patriarchal structure of the covenant nation of Israel was also established by God. With the coming of the New Covenant salvation was found in Christ alone (Solus Christus). While Israel was no longer the source of spiritual truth, God's design of a covenant people did not disappear.

Acts 2:39 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 16:31 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

The family unit was designed by God. Father's are supposed to introduce their children to God.

Psalm 78:5-7 5 For He established a testimony in Jacob And appointed a law in Israel, Which He commanded our fathers That they should teach them to their children, 6 That the generation to come might know, even the children yet to be born, That they may arise and tell them to their children, 7 That they should put their confidence in God And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments,

Is it at all absurd that God chooses to call His elect out of Christian families? If so, may that absurdity abound!

Very well said.

 

[Iconoclast]

I fully expect certain critics of Calvinism to refer to it as absurd. The question is whether Luke's response actually is absurd. I do not believe that it is. The idea of a covenant family was first established by God in the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12-17). Salvation was found within God's covenant people, not exclusively, but generally. By "within" I mean that the message to love and serve the LORD was generally found within God's covenant people. The patriarchal structure of the covenant nation of Israel was also established by God. With the coming of the New Covenant salvation was found in Christ alone (Solus Christus). While Israel was no longer the source of spiritual truth, God's design of a covenant people did not disappear.

Acts 2:39 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 16:31 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

The family unit was designed by God. Father's are supposed to introduce their children to God.

Psalm 78:5-7 5 For He established a testimony in Jacob And appointed a law in Israel, Which He commanded our fathers That they should teach them to their children, 6 That the generation to come might know, even the children yet to be born, That they may arise and tell them to their children, 7 That they should put their confidence in God And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments,

Is it at all absurd that God chooses to call His elect out of Christian families? If so, may that absurdity abound!

:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

Many times when a person declares something solid, to be absurd.....that shows how far away from truth they have drifted:
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke posted...

God's election is conditioned in the sense that his election of individuals springs from a desire within God.

In one sense that can be true..in that God certainly wants ALL to be saved, and He gives potentially saving "light" to every person who comes into the world.

But regarding salvation, it is the decision of the seeker as to whether they will be saved or not.

God Almighty has decreed...

I have set before this day blessing and cursing. life and death...therefor, choose life.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke posted...



In one sense that can be true..in that God certainly wants ALL to be saved, and He gives potentially saving "light" to every person who comes into the world.

But regarding salvation, it is the decision of the seeker as to whether they will be saved or not.

Only insomuch that the seeker is one who has been divinely enabled to seek God and enabled thus to find Him.

 

[MorseOp]

Luke posted...



In one sense that can be true..in that God certainly wants ALL to be saved, and He gives potentially saving "light" to every person who comes into the world.

But regarding salvation, it is the decision of the seeker as to whether they will be saved or not.

God Almighty has decreed...

You quoted part of Deuteronomy 30:19. The context of that chapter is not salvific in the way we understand salvation. The Law included blessings and cursings based on outward obedience. The life referred to in verse 19 is not eternal life, rather it is the sustained blessing of God based on obedience.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke..

in posting my post, you did not post all of all of it.

Here is what you left out..

But regarding salvation, it is the decision of the seeker as to whether they will be saved or not.

God Almighty has decreed...


Quote:
I have set before this day blessing and cursing. life and death...therefor, choose life.

 

[Iconoclast]

You quoted part of Deuteronomy 30:19. The context of that chapter is not salvific in the way we understand salvation. The Law included blessings and cursings based on outward obedience. The life referred to in verse 19 is not eternal life, rather it is the sustained blessing of God based on obedience.

Correct...this has been explained to AIC......but he thinks jn 1:9 trumps every verse in the bible. Last week he listed about a dozen verses like this one in DEUT. then did not like when we explained it to him.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Luke..

in posting my post, you did not post all of all of it.

Here is what you left out..

He probably left that part out because he could not find it in himself to post that error.
The sinner decides nothing. It is of God who showeth mercy.

 

[Luke2427]

He probably left that part out because he could not find it in himself to post that error.
The sinner decides nothing. It is of God who showeth mercy.

That's about the size of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's about the size of it.

I know. It is sad to see what that theology leads to. I felt the same way when I saw it posted again , so soon after correction was offered.

 

[Alive in Christ]

MorseOp....

You posted.....

You quoted part of Deuteronomy 30:19. The context of that chapter is not salvific in the way we understand salvation. The Law included blessings and cursings based on outward obedience. The life referred to in verse 19 is not eternal life, rather it is the sustained blessing of God based on obedience.

In actuality, this passage of scripture is one of MULTITUDES that I and others have repeatedly posted..over and over and over and over again that make ABUNDUNTLY clear that God gives every person a choice to make, regarding recieiveing the gift of eternal life.

It doesnt happen by magic. God does not "flip a switch" somewhere to turn on his newest robot/christian.

God draws all people, He gives them the opportunity, usually many times, and the "whosoever wills" recieve eternal life.

Praise the Lord!

 

[Iconoclast]

[=Alive in Christ;1870022]

It doesnt happen by magic. God does not "flip a switch" somewhere to turn on his newest robot/christian.

Not flipping a switch, but being born from above.....God does it all.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


God does it.The sinner decides nothing...you can post against it over and over, but the word will not change.

 

[Amy.G]

Deuteronomy 30:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

If this verse is referring to eternal salvation, then when the Jew chose life, his descendants would receive eternal life also. But it does not refer to eternal life, but earthly physical life and the blessings of it.