Dead Faith as taught by the Apostle James

[Moriah]

DHK or any others that believe like DHK;

There are those here who believe and teach that James speaks of a dead faith for people who are already Christians, and not about a faith someone needs when they want to be saved. However, why would you believe that James is speaking about a dead faith BEFORE one is a Christian when James says, “Can such faith save him?” That scripture is proof that it is about becoming saved and staying saved.

James says faith without deeds is useless, James 2:20. So how did that same useless faith become SAVING faith, as taught by others here? How did that same useless faith be the kind that turns out to be the most important kind of useful faith there can or ever will be? It is simple, it cannot be.

In your beliefs, James calls life saving faith a dead faith. Please explain why James would call SAVING FAITH a dead faith for a Christian.
Please explain better how you even think James is only explaining faith AFTER already being saved and not before, when he uses Abraham before the works of circumcision as an example.

Faith without works of the law is what Paul teaches, not faith without sorrow for sins! Faith without circumcision is what Paul teaches in the Bible, not faith with any kind of right action is worthy of condemnation. That is what many argue and teach here on this board.

Show me one scripture that says what you teach, that to believe and be sorry for sins is not possible and is heresy.

Show me one warning from the Bible that says believe and do not be sorry or confess or you will be condemned.

The Bible says we are to search for God, but you say that is impossible and heresy. If a person is still searching for God, then they are not yet saved! If we are searching for God, we are doing something! It is NOT a sin, as you teach.

You teach that an unsaved person is to believe in Jesus but do not feel sorry for sins or cry or shudder or do anything else, for to do so is a work and you will be condemned.

If you do not obey Jesus, then you are not saved, that is what the Bible says. So, how do you think that no obedience then got you saved? How do you think no obedience got you saved if not obeying means you are not saved?
You say we are not to obey in any way to be saved. Since that is your belief, tell me, why does Jesus say he will make his home with the one he knows, but you claim he makes his home with those who do not yet obey and therefore those he does NOT know?

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK or any others that believe like DHK;

There are those here who believe and teach that James speaks of a dead faith for people who are already Christians, and not about a faith someone needs when they want to be saved. However, why would you believe that James is speaking about a dead faith BEFORE one is a Christian when James says, “Can such faith save him?” That scripture is proof that it is about becoming saved and staying saved.

James says faith without deeds is useless, James 2:20. So how did that same useless faith become SAVING faith, as taught by others here? How did that same useless faith be the kind that turns out to be the most important kind of useful faith there can or ever will be? It is simple, it cannot be.

In your beliefs, James calls life saving faith a dead faith. Please explain why James would call SAVING FAITH a dead faith for a Christian.
Please explain better how you even think James is only explaining faith AFTER already being saved and not before, when he uses Abraham before the works of circumcision as an example.

Faith without works of the law is what Paul teaches, not faith without sorrow for sins! Faith without circumcision is what Paul teaches in the Bible, not faith with any kind of right action is worthy of condemnation. That is what many argue and teach here on this board.

Show me one scripture that says what you teach, that to believe and be sorry for sins is not possible and is heresy.

Show me one warning from the Bible that says believe and do not be sorry or confess or you will be condemned.

The Bible says we are to search for God, but you say that is impossible and heresy. If a person is still searching for God, then they are not yet saved! If we are searching for God, we are doing something! It is NOT a sin, as you teach.

You teach that an unsaved person is to believe in Jesus but do not feel sorry for sins or cry or shudder or do anything else, for to do so is a work and you will be condemned.

If you do not obey Jesus, then you are not saved, that is what the Bible says. So, how do you think that no obedience then got you saved? How do you think no obedience got you saved if not obeying means you are not saved?
You say we are not to obey in any way to be saved. Since that is your belief, tell me, why does Jesus say he will make his home with the one he knows, but you claim he makes his home with those who do not yet obey and therefore those he does NOT know?

paul tells us how a sinner becomes saved by grace of god, james picks it up after salvation, and tells us that one really saved will have good works to show it!

both compliment each other, one looks to salvation, one back to it!

 

[Moriah]

paul tells us how a sinner becomes saved by grace of god, james picks it up after salvation, and tells us that one really saved will have good works to show it!

both compliment each other, one looks to salvation, one back to it!

I know that is what you believe, but I have asked for it to be explained in detail.
Please explain it to me how I asked it in the OP.
I would be very thankful for the time you spend on answering.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know that is what you believe, but I have asked for it to be explained in detail.
Please explain it to me how I asked it in the OP.
I would be very thankful for the time you spend on answering.

Would say that "saving faith" int he bible would just refer to a sinner receiving jesus by faith, and that the Lord grants himm a new nature in christ and his Spirit, and that now the person has the means available to live for god and do good works the Lord sends his way!

 

[Moriah]

Would say that "saving faith" int he bible would just refer to a sinner receiving jesus by faith,

Saving faith is a faith with an action, a repentant heart. Someone who believes, confesses, someone who calls on the name of the Lord.

DHK and others here say that if one repents, or if one does anything in an effort to be saved, that that is a false doctrine.

However, that is not true what they say. For the Bible says to believe in the heart (Romans 10:9), and confess with the mouth (Romans 10:10). The Bible says to call on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13). The Bible says to trust in God (Romans 10:11). The Bible says to do those things, that THEN we will be saved.

Again, DHK and others here have told me here that that is not possible, that it is another doctrine worthy of condemnation.

and that the Lord grants himm a new nature in christ and his Spirit, and that now the person has the means available to live for god

A person can believe in and obey God before they are saved, and then Jesus will save them, then they will believe with power, understanding and wisdom.

and do good works the Lord sends his way!

What do you mean so they can “do good works the Lord sends his way?

 

[The Biblicist]

DHK or any others that believe like DHK;

There are those here who believe and teach that James speaks of a dead faith for people who are already Christians, and not about a faith someone needs when they want to be saved.

James is speaking about "if ONE OF YOU" (v. 16) or to professed Christians. He is not addressing any person who never has confessed to be saved. If I am wrong here, please point out in the context where he addresses a lost person who is thinking about being saved?

He is specifically addressing members of the congression "one of you" and you cannot become a member of a congregation without first making a profession of faith at baptism and reception into the assembly (Acts 2:41). It is plain he is addressing "one of you" who are members of such a public assembly as that very assembly is being described just previous to this question:

James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

James is specially addressing "one of you" in "YOUR ASSEMBLY" as this is the preceding context for this whole discussion.

He is asking a person who has already publically professed Christ, been baptized and receiveded into "YOUR assembly" if "one of you" is exercising or professing a "faith" that is never EVIDENCED by any works - can that kind of faith save them? In other words, such a faith without EVIDENTIAL WORKS is the kind of faith demons have who are unregenerated or unchanged in regard to their core nature. There is no salvation for demons.

However, true justifying faith always accompanies regeneration and a truely justified person is a truly regenerated person and regeneration always is evidenced by "good works" according to Paul - Eph. 2:10 "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

However, in Romans 3:24-5:2 Paul is dealing strictly with justification by faith which is without works but it is not without regeneration as Romans 6-8 specifically deals with.

So justification by faith is "without works" period! However, justification by faith without works is not without regeneration which is always accompanied by "good works." Can you understand what I have just said? I don't think so, and I think your response will prove you don't understand what I just said.




However, why would you believe that James is speaking about a dead faith BEFORE one is a Christian when James says, “Can such faith save him?” That scripture is proof that it is about becoming saved and staying saved.

James says faith without deeds is useless, James 2:20. So how did that same useless faith become SAVING faith, as taught by others here? How did that same useless faith be the kind that turns out to be the most important kind of useful faith there can or ever will be? It is simple, it cannot be.

In your beliefs, James calls life saving faith a dead faith. Please explain why James would call SAVING FAITH a dead faith for a Christian.
Please explain better how you even think James is only explaining faith AFTER already being saved and not before, when he uses Abraham before the works of circumcision as an example.

Faith without works of the law is what Paul teaches, not faith without sorrow for sins! Faith without circumcision is what Paul teaches in the Bible, not faith with any kind of right action is worthy of condemnation. That is what many argue and teach here on this board.

Show me one scripture that says what you teach, that to believe and be sorry for sins is not possible and is heresy.

Show me one warning from the Bible that says believe and do not be sorry or confess or you will be condemned.

The Bible says we are to search for God, but you say that is impossible and heresy. If a person is still searching for God, then they are not yet saved! If we are searching for God, we are doing something! It is NOT a sin, as you teach.

You teach that an unsaved person is to believe in Jesus but do not feel sorry for sins or cry or shudder or do anything else, for to do so is a work and you will be condemned.

If you do not obey Jesus, then you are not saved, that is what the Bible says. So, how do you think that no obedience then got you saved? How do you think no obedience got you saved if not obeying means you are not saved?
You say we are not to obey in any way to be saved. Since that is your belief, tell me, why does Jesus say he will make his home with the one he knows, but you claim he makes his home with those who do not yet obey and therefore those he does NOT know?[/QUOTE]

 

[Moriah]

James is speaking about "if ONE OF YOU" (v. 16) or to professed Christians. He is not addressing any person who never has confessed to be saved. If I am wrong here, please point out in the context where he addresses a lost person who is thinking about being saved?

He is specifically addressing members of the congression "one of you" and you cannot become a member of a congregation without first making a profession of faith at baptism and reception into the assembly (Acts 2:41). It is plain he is addressing "one of you" who are members of such a public assembly as that very assembly is being described just previous to this question:

James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

James is specially addressing "one of you" in "YOUR ASSEMBLY" as this is the preceding context for this whole discussion.

He is asking a person who has already publically professed Christ, been baptized and receiveded into "YOUR assembly" if "one of you" is exercising or professing a "faith" that is never EVIDENCED by any works - can that kind of faith save them? In other words, such a faith without EVIDENTIAL WORKS is the kind of faith demons have who are unregenerated or unchanged in regard to their core nature. There is no salvation for demons.

James says, “Can such a faith save a man?” v. 14
It is taught here by many that faith and nothing else IS the faith that saves. James tells us that that kind of faith does not save.

However, true justifying faith always accompanies regeneration and a truely justified person is a truly regenerated person and regeneration always is evidenced by "good works" according to Paul - Eph. 2:10 "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

Ephesians 2:10 is about doing good works after one is saved, it does not support the belief that we can do NOTHING before we are saved.

However, in Romans 3:24-5:2 Paul is dealing strictly with justification by faith which is without works but it is not without regeneration as Romans 6-8 specifically deals with.

In Romans 3:24-5:2 is about being saved by faith WITHOUT the works of the law like circumcision! It is the VERY WORKS THAT PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT IN THOSE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU POSTED.
NOWHERE DOES PAUL EVER SAY WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE WITHOUT THE WORK OF BEING SORRY FOR OUR SINS, OR FOR FAITH WITHOUT SEARCHING FOR GOD.
Read Romans 3:29, Paul says is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too?
What separated Jews from Gentiles? It was the law! It was circumcision!
Now read on to Romans 4:9, Paul says is this blessedness only for the circumcised , or also for the uncircumcised?
It is about not being saved by circumcision. It is not about NOT REPENTING.
The Bible says the words ‘circumcision’ and ‘uncircumcision’ 11 times from the scriptures you referenced, for Romans 3:24-5:2! NOT ONCE DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY DO NOT REPENT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED. That is nonsense to teach that to anyone!

So justification by faith is "without works" period! However, justification by faith without works is not without regeneration which is always accompanied by "good works." Can you understand what I have just said? I don't think so, and I think your response will prove you don't understand what I just said.

There is NO such thing as being regenerated to believe! That is NOWHERE in the Bible. Show me one scripture that says we are regenerated to believe!
Dead faith is useless. It is not EVER the kind of saving faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

James says, “Can such a faith save a man?” v. 14
It is taught here by many that faith and nothing else IS the faith that saves. James tells us that that kind of faith does not save.

The context is talking about "ONE OF YOU" that is a member in a New Testament "assembly" (James 2:2) that has already made a public profession of faith before this assembly, been baptized and become a member of this assembly. That is the context of "ONE OF YOU"! He is not talking about a person who has never professed faith in Christ, never been baptized and never received into church membership. This is a person received upon the basis of a PROFESSION but whose subsequent "Christian" life does not manifest ANY GOOD WORKS. Thus the profession is demonstratably a "DEAD" profession of faith lacking no REGENERATIVE LIFE from whence "good works" originate from within a truly justified AND regenerated human being.

Ephesians 2:10 is about doing good works after one is saved, it does not support the belief that we can do NOTHING before we are saved.

If you jerk this out of its context you may have a point. However, when interpreted in its context it is talking about the point of REGENERATION or quickening. Verse 1 deals with quickening does it not? Verse 5 still deals with quickening does it not and in verse 5 that quickening is defined as "by grace are ye saved" is it not? That phrase first used in verse 5 to describe quickening as "by grace are ye saved" is repeated in verse 8 is it not? Hence, the term "saved" in verse 8 is a description of quickening as first described in verse 5 is it not? Hence, verse 8 is speaking of INITIAL salvation by quickening in connection or "THROUGH FAITH" is it not? This INITIAL salvation by QUICKENING THROUGH FAITH is "NOT OF YOURSELVES" but as verse 10 explains but such is GODS WORKMANSHIP because only God can CREATE and quickening through faith is a CREATIVE ACT OF GOD and thus a "GIFT OF GOD" and NOT OF WORKS or NOT A PRODUCT OF YOUR WORKS but a PRODUCT OF GOD's CREATIVE WORKMANSHIP.

It is the WORKMANSHIP of God or this act of CREATION in Christ Jesus, which is QUICKENING or bringing us into UNION with Christ whereby we are brought into UNION with God and God is life and thus in UNION WITH ETERNAL LIFE that is the source of all our "good works" or "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

The preposition "UNTO" demands "good works" are the CONSEQUENCES of regeneration through faith not the cause. Regeneration is the cause of good works and thus good works FOLLOW but do not precede regeneration because they are EFFECTS of regeneration.

Rightly so, as Jesus said that the INSIDE of a cup must first be cleansed before the outside can be regarded as clean. The tree must first be made GOOD before the fruit can be regarded as good and thus a man must first be MADE SPIRITUAL LIFE OR UNITED TO GOD before his works can be regarded as "good." Good works must originate from a GOOD source within man and that GOOD source is the object of God's Quickening or CREATIVE work.

In Romans 3:24-5:2 is about being saved

No, the word "saved" cannot be found in Romans 3:24-5:2. Paul is speaking about being "JUSTIFIED" which is ONE ASPECT of past tense "saved." Regeneration is another aspect of past tense "saved." Paul distinguishes which aspect of past tense "saved" he is speaking about but you make him confuse all aspects under a term ("saved") that he does not even use in Romans 3:24-5:2. Use his words not YOUR words. Don't put words in his mouth he NEVER uses in Romans 3:24-5:2.

by faith WITHOUT the works of the law like circumcision! It is the VERY WORKS THAT PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT IN THOSE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU POSTED.

He covers EVERY POSSIBLE KIND OF WORK and denies ANY TYPE OF WORK that Abraham participated in or was performed through him obtaine justification before God.

1. Verses 1-5 are "works" PREVIOUS TO THE LAW OF MOSES and PREVIOUS TO circumcision.

2. Verses 6-12 He denies that obedience to circucmision justified him

3. Verses 13-15 He denies that obedience to the works of "THE LAW" justified Abraham.

4. Verses 16-21 He denies that OBEDIENCE OF ANY TYPE by Abraham obtained the promises of God and it is THIS ILLUSTRATION that he directly applies to US and our faith in Christ - Rom. 4:21-5:2 in defining the nature of justification by faith and the righteousenss imputed to believers.

So you do not know what you are talking about. Paul comprehensively denies that ANY KIND of personal obedience by Abraham obtained the promise of justification by faith. He was justfied at the point of faith in the gospel in UR of the Chaldees before he moved to Haran (Gal. 3:8; Gen. 12:1-3 past tense "had").

NOWHERE DOES PAUL EVER SAY WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE WITHOUT THE WORK OF BEING SORRY FOR OUR SINS, OR FOR FAITH WITHOUT SEARCHING FOR GOD.

Repentance is an INTERNAL change that is GRANTED by God (Acts 11:17) and faith is a GIFT of God (Eph. 2:10; Philip. 1:29; Heb. 12:2; Jn. 6:29; 44, 64-65) and is not a work of man.

Read Romans 3:29, Paul says is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too?
What separated Jews from Gentiles? It was the law! It was circumcision!

Circumcision and the Law of Moses was merely a more comprehensive revelation of the very SAME LAW IN PRINCIPLE written on the conscience of the Gentile and BOTH ARE THE VERY SAME LAW OF GOD that BOTH are under and NEITHER can be justified by as Romans 3:9-20 explicitly demands there is NO DIFFERENCE (Rom. 3:22-23).

NO FLESH can be justified by the Law regardless of its revelation in consicence or through Moses.

ALL THE WORLD is equally condemned under the SAME LAW whether revealed in conscience or through Moses.

EVERY MOUTH is shut by the very SAME LAW whether revealed in conscience or through Moses.

FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in regard to THE LAW as the SAME LAW condemns BOTH EQUALLY to be SINNERS.

Now read on to Romans 4:9, Paul says is this blessedness only for the circumcised , or also for the uncircumcised?
It is about not being saved by circumcision. It is not about NOT REPENTING.

Gospel Repentance is not penance! It is not something YOU DO (penance) it is an INTERNAL CHANGE made by the grace of God so that you no longer LOVE darkness but HATE darkness and no longer HATE light but LOVE the light and faith is COMING to the Light. You are teaching penance not gospel repentance.

The Bible says the words ‘circumcision’ and ‘uncircumcision’ 11 times from the scriptures you referenced, for Romans 3:24-5:2! NOT ONCE DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY DO NOT REPENT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED. That is nonsense to teach that to anyone!

Please point out the word "repent" or "repentance" in Romans 3:24-5:2????

There is NO such thing as being regenerated to believe!

Regardless if you place belief BEFORE regeneration or AFTER regeneration the point is that one does not occur WITHOUT the other regardless of the order. Good works are the fruits of regeneration (Eph. 2:10) but justification is obtained WITHOUT WORKS of EVERY KIND.

 

[Moriah]

The context is talking about "ONE OF YOU" that is a member in a New Testament "assembly" (James 2:2) that has already made a public profession of faith before this assembly, been baptized and become a member of this assembly. That is the context of "ONE OF YOU"! He is not talking about a person who has never professed faith in Christ, never been baptized and never received into church membership. This is a person received upon the basis of a PROFESSION but whose subsequent "Christian" life does not manifest ANY GOOD WORKS. Thus the profession is demonstratably a "DEAD" profession of faith lacking no REGENERATIVE LIFE from whence "good works" originate from within a truly justified AND regenerated human being.

So then, can such a faith save a man? Can it Biblicist? NO, it cannot save a man, nor can it keep a man saved! That is the word of God!

If you jerk this out of its context you may have a point. However, when interpreted in its context it is talking about the point of REGENERATION or quickening. Verse 1 deals with quickening does it not? Verse 5 still deals with quickening does it not and in verse 5 that quickening is defined as "by grace are ye saved" is it not? That phrase first used in verse 5 to describe quickening as "by grace are ye saved" is repeated in verse 8 is it not? Hence, the term "saved" in verse 8 is a description of quickening as first described in verse 5 is it not? Hence, verse 8 is speaking of INITIAL salvation by quickening in connection or "THROUGH FAITH" is it not? This INITIAL salvation by QUICKENING THROUGH FAITH is "NOT OF YOURSELVES" but as verse 10 explains but such is GODS WORKMANSHIP because only God can CREATE and quickening through faith is a CREATIVE ACT OF GOD and thus a "GIFT OF GOD" and NOT OF WORKS or NOT A PRODUCT OF YOUR WORKS but a PRODUCT OF GOD's CREATIVE WORKMANSHIP.

Ephesians 2:10 is about doing good works after we are saved. You have not proven that a person can do nothing good before they are saved. That is dumb. For Jesus tells us even the ungrateful and wicked LOVE THOSE WHO LOVE THEM. Even Jesus tells us about the GOOD SAMARITAN. The Jews did not even associate with the Samaritans, yet Jesus tells us about a good one!

No, the word "saved" cannot be found in Romans 3:24-5:2. Paul is speaking about being "JUSTIFIED" which is ONE ASPECT of past tense "saved." Regeneration is another aspect of past tense "saved." Paul distinguishes which aspect of past tense "saved" he is speaking about but you make him confuse all aspects under a term ("saved") that he does not even use in Romans 3:24-5:2. Use his words not YOUR words. Don't put words in his mouth he NEVER uses in Romans 3:24-5:2.

The sick part is, you are not kidding.
Being justified, saved, and born again---they all happen at the same time!

He covers EVERY POSSIBLE KIND OF WORK and denies ANY TYPE OF WORK that Abraham participated in or was performed through him obtaine justification before God.

That is not true what you say. Nowhere does the scriptures say faith without repenting, or anything like that.

1. Verses 1-5 are "works" PREVIOUS TO THE LAW OF MOSES and PREVIOUS TO circumcision.

2. Verses 6-12 He denies that obedience to circucmision justified him

3. Verses 13-15 He denies that obedience to the works of "THE LAW" justified Abraham.

4. Verses 16-21 He denies that OBEDIENCE OF ANY TYPE by Abraham obtained the promises of God and it is THIS ILLUSTRATION that he directly applies to US and our faith in Christ - Rom. 4:21-5:2 in defining the nature of justification by faith and the righteousenss imputed to believers. So you do not know what you are talking about. Paul comprehensively denies that ANY KIND of personal obedience by Abraham obtained the promise of justification by faith. He was justfied at the point of faith in the gospel in UR of the Chaldees before he moved to Haran (Gal. 3:8; Gen. 12:1-3 past tense "had").

You are wrong. Paul speaks about works like circumcision. Nowhere does Paul say works like repenting! Paul does NOT say Abraham was saved while he hated God, as Calvinists teach! Calvinists teach we are saved while we hate God. NOWHERE DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY ABRAHAM WAS SAVED BECAUSE HE DID NOT REPENT. That is ludicrous teaching. It is insanity.

Repentance is an INTERNAL change that is GRANTED by God (Acts 11:17)

Acts 11:17 does NOT say what are trying to say it says. Acts 11:17 is about Gentiles as a people were saved, not about individual salvation. Peter is explaining to the Jews that Gentiles were given the gift, the Holy Spirit.

and faith is a GIFT of God (Eph. 2:10; Philip. 1:29; Heb. 12:2; Jn. 6:29; 44, 64-65) and is not a work of man.

Everything is from God! You have not proven that God does not choose us if we believe and obey. You have not proven that we only get the gift when God who knows our hearts accept us!

The Bible says we get the Holy Spirit when we obey.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Circumcision and the Law of Moses was merely a more comprehensive revelation of the very SAME LAW IN PRINCIPLE written on the conscience of the Gentile and BOTH ARE THE VERY SAME LAW OF GOD that BOTH are under and NEITHER can be justified by as Romans 3:9-20 explicitly demands there is NO DIFFERENCE (Rom. 3:22-23).

Those scriptures do not say what you are saying. Paul is explaining that the Jews are sinners just like the Gentiles. You want us to believe that being circumcised in the flesh was naturally on the minds of the Gentiles! You want us to believe that animal sacrifices to atone for sins were on the minds of the Gentiles. You are speaking nonsense.

The Jews were God’s people. The Gentiles were not called God’s people. The Jews were God’s people by the WORKS of the law, like circumcision, sin offerings, etc. Even Abraham was circumcised. Moses had to circumcise his son. Even Job gave sin offerings. If they did not do these things, even though they believed in God, they would be cut off! God was going to kill Moses when Moses did not circumcise his son.

Romans 9:25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

The Gentiles were NOT God's people in the Old Testament times! No matter how many times you say otherwise! People who obey God are the ones who belong to God. The Gentiles in the Old Testament did not obey God. They did not get circumcised. They did not do all the things required for them to do.

Gospel Repentance is not penance!

What are you talking about now?

It is not something YOU DO (penance) it is an INTERNAL CHANGE made by the grace of God so that you no longer LOVE darkness but HATE darkness and no longer HATE light but LOVE the light and faith is COMING to the Light. You are teaching penance not gospel repentance.

Repenting IS something WE do. Stop making up things that are not in the Bible. Where does it say that in the Bible? It does not!

Please point out the word "repent" or "repentance" in Romans 3:24-5:2????

YOU need to point out where we are NOT to repent! YOU said Romans 3:24-5:2 was about works that we do not do. YOU are the one that says repenting is a work, and therefore NOT to be done before being saved. Then where does it say that?!!!

Regardless if you place belief BEFORE regeneration or AFTER regeneration the point is that one does not occur WITHOUT the other regardless of the order. Good works are the fruits of regeneration (Eph. 2:10) but justification is obtained WITHOUT WORKS of EVERY KIND.

Show one scripture that says God causes us to believe in Him without our wanting or knowing. Show one scripture that says man cannot believe after learning of Jesus. Show one scripture that says God regenerates us to cause us to believe. Give the scriptures now, or stop preaching things that are not in the Bible!

 

[The Biblicist]

So then, can such a faith save a man? Can it Biblicist?

The person being described was NEVER SAVED in the first place! Second, EVERY saved person is a REGENERATED person and thus their profession of faith is EVIDENCED by good works (Eph. 2:10) as there is no such thing as a justified person WITHOUT WORKS who is not REGENERATED which is evidenced by good works. So justification is obtained without works but a "saved" man is not merely justified without works he is also inseparably regenerated which SPIRITUAL LIFE is evidence by "good works." So the faith that cannot save is a faith produced by an UNREGENERATED heart.

That is dumb.

The only thing "dumb" here is your FAILURE to repudiate the contextual evidences I placed before you! You could not deal with that evidence!! You could not say ONE WORD to repudiate my contextual analysis of Ephesians 2:1,5,8-10. Instead you closed your eyes, played the ignore and denial game.

Come on, be a man and face the evidence I placed before you and deal with it as your ASSERTIONS to the contrary are empty hot air with no value at all. Here is the contextual evidence again:

If you jerk this out of its context you may have a point. However, when interpreted in its context it is talking about the point of REGENERATION or quickening. Verse 1 deals with quickening does it not? Verse 5 still deals with quickening does it not and in verse 5 that quickening is defined as "by grace are ye saved" is it not? That phrase first used in verse 5 to describe quickening as "by grace are ye saved" is repeated in verse 8 is it not? Hence, the term "saved" in verse 8 is a description of quickening as first described in verse 5 is it not? Hence, verse 8 is speaking of INITIAL salvation by quickening in connection or "THROUGH FAITH" is it not? This INITIAL salvation by QUICKENING THROUGH FAITH is "NOT OF YOURSELVES" but as verse 10 explains but such is GODS WORKMANSHIP because only God can CREATE and quickening through faith is a CREATIVE ACT OF GOD and thus a "GIFT OF GOD" and NOT OF WORKS or NOT A PRODUCT OF YOUR WORKS but a PRODUCT OF GOD's CREATIVE WORKMANSHIP.

It is the WORKMANSHIP of God or this act of CREATION in Christ Jesus, which is QUICKENING or bringing us into UNION with Christ whereby we are brought into UNION with God and God is life and thus in UNION WITH ETERNAL LIFE that is the source of all our "good works" or "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

The preposition "UNTO" demands "good works" are the CONSEQUENCES of regeneration through faith not the cause. Regeneration is the cause of good works and thus good works FOLLOW but do not precede regeneration because they are EFFECTS of regeneration.

Rightly so, as Jesus said that the INSIDE of a cup must first be cleansed before the outside can be regarded as clean. The tree must first be made GOOD before the fruit can be regarded as good and thus a man must first be MADE SPIRITUAL LIFE OR UNITED TO GOD before his works can be regarded as "good." Good works must originate from a GOOD source within man and that GOOD source is the object of God's Quickening or CREATIVE work.

For Jesus tells us even the ungrateful and wicked LOVE THOSE WHO LOVE THEM.[

Can't you see that Jesus is illustrating a "love" that COMES SHORT OF GOD's LOVE! A love that is NOT GOD'S LOVE! The miracle of God's love is that he loved us when we were HIS ENEMIES not his friends. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL whereas their love was CONDITIONED upon mutual love for each other.

Even Jesus tells us about the GOOD SAMARITAN. The Jews did not even associate with the Samaritans, yet Jesus tells us about a good one!

This is a PARABLE which is NOT A TRUE STORY but a FICTIONAL story used to illustrate teaching points. There was no such actual literal Samaratan. Jesus simply used the fictional Samaratan in this parable to force the Jew to admit that being a "neighbor" is not CONDITIONAL love but that is precisely what your kind of gospel is all about CONDITIONAL love. You believe that lost people must FIRST love God before God will love them - YOU ARE THE JEW who does not know the meaning of God's Love which is UNCONDITIONAL and IN SPITE OF kind of love:

"We love him BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US" while we were yet enemies, unloving and hating him!

That is not true what you say. Nowhere does the scriptures say faith without repenting, or anything like that.

I know for a fact that you have NEVER REPENTED! Why? Because the Bible says that gospel repentance is "repentance FROM DEAD WORKS" (Heb. 6:1) and you have NEVER repented "from dead works."

The "works" are characterized as "dead" because doing them will not obtain spiiritual life, justification, salvation from God but only CONDEMNATION and the WRATH of God unto second death! Why? Because no human being has the inherent capability of doing "good" according to God's standard of "good" when it comes to justification before God!

That is precisely why Jesus told the Young Ruler who desired eternal life by doing something "GOOD" enough to obtain it that "THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE and that is God." He then proved his point by pointing him to the TEN COMMANDMENTS and said if you want to DO GOOD enough to have eternal life then KEEP THE TEN COMMANDMENTS and he named some of them.

However, this "GOOD" young ruler professed he had KEPT THEM from his youth up and Jesus understood to keep the ten commandments is to be "perfect" and so he said if thou wilt be "perfect" then sell all you have and give to the poor! He said this to PROVE he had not kept a single one of the Ten commandments from his youth up but had violated every single one of them JUST AS YOU HAVE AND YOU STILL DO but are just as ignorant as the rich young ruler in thinking you do keep them.

To sell all that he has and give to the poor would be proof that he keeps the second five of the ten commandments as they relate to your relationship with your fellow man.

To forsake all and follow Christ would demonstrate you keep the first five of the ten commandments as they relate to your relationship with God and would require total faith in God for your subsistance as you sold all that you have.

YOU have never repented of your "dead works" but teach a gospel of dead works that you call "repentance." Repentance is TURNING FROM SELF and ALL THAT YOU ARE and ALL THAT YOU CAN DO and trusting completely in nothing more and nothing less than what Christ did for you. If you have not done that you have not repented of sin.

 

[mandym]

Does not anyone have anything knew to debate?

 

[The Biblicist]

Does not anyone have anything knew to debate?

Did you read the OP? If you don't like the subject then go create your own thread. However, your post is an attempt to derail this thread and that is contrary to the rules on this forum.

 

[Moriah]

The person being described was NEVER SAVED in the first place!

That is NOT the point. The point is can such a faith save a man. The answer is NO. Dead faith, is useless faith, it is faith without action. That is the Word of God.

Second, EVERY saved person is a REGENERATED person and thus their profession of faith is EVIDENCED by good works (Eph. 2:10)

What does that have to do with “Can such a faith save a man?”

You sure use the word ‘regenerated’ a lot. Could you give me the scriptures that have the word ‘regenerated’ in it?

as there is no such thing as a justified person WITHOUT WORKS who is not REGENERATED which is evidenced by good works.

Apostle James says, “Can such a faith save a man.” You and others here say, “Yes, such a faith saves a man.”

You go against scripture when you and others say belief with nothing saves.

I know your beliefs are a little different than DHK’s, and that your beliefs do not even give credit to what James says, for you believe no one can believe until they are already saved. James knocks out both yours and DHK’s beliefs with that one scripture.

So justification is obtained without works but a "saved" man is not merely justified without works he is also inseparably regenerated which SPIRITUAL LIFE is evidence by "good works." So the faith that cannot save is a faith produced by an UNREGENERATED heart.

In other words, “I will not begin to even consider what James says because that one scripture disproves many of the other scriptures that I just know supports total depravity and no choice.”

The Word of God is powerful. One scripture can stop the false doctrine of total depravity and semi-depravity, or whatever it is DHK and others here believe…that someone can believe but not have sorrow for sins. If only you will believe.

The only thing "dumb" here is your FAILURE to repudiate the contextual evidences I placed before you! You could not deal with that evidence!! You could not say ONE WORD to repudiate my contextual analysis of Ephesians 2:1,5,8-10. Instead you closed your eyes, played the ignore and denial game.

I handle more of what you write than you me. I have explained all the scriptures that you bring up in support of your false beliefs.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

This is about the Gentiles who did not have the works of the law. They were dead. They were dead in their sins; they were WITHOUT God, Christ, and hope in the world, they were without the law, the covenants of the promise. They were dead in their sins. They did not have the external ceremonial washings, etc, to make themselves clean before an all Holy God.

Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions---it is by grace you have been saved.

This is about how by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, we are made clean; Jews and Gentiles had no works to do first, like the various ceremonial washings.

Ephesians 5:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast.

The works again are circumcision, various ceremonial washings, etc. The Jews had the relationship with God through the law of works---in this they COULD boast, but not anymore, for all can be saved by believing in his blood shed on the cross. It is no longer by gift offerings, where someone could give better gifts than another.

Ephesians 5:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

That is about good works in Christ that we are to do. None of these scriptures say what you say it does. We can obey God before we are saved and have the Holy Spirit, and definitely more so after! Because we will have the love of God and the understanding.

We can believe in Jesus after learning of him, for that is the way we get faith.

We are to believe with our hearts, and confess with our mouths, We are to trust in God, and call on the name of the Lord.

YOU REPLY TO THOSE SCRIPTURES IN ROMANS 10! You are the one who does not reply. You ignore many scriptures and jump to explaining things you only were taught by other men.

Seriously, reply to Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth…and believe in your heart…you will be saved

Those are things YOU and others here say is impossible; however, Paul says those things are to be done AND THEN you will be saved, not during being saved, not after being saved, BUT BEFORE.

11 Anyone who trusts in the Lord will never be put to shame.

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Did you hear that? A person CAN and SHOULD CALL on the name of the Lord, THEN they will be SAVED.

Can't you see that Jesus is illustrating a "love" that COMES SHORT OF GOD's LOVE! A love that is NOT GOD'S LOVE! The miracle of God's love is that he loved us when we were HIS ENEMIES not his friends. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL whereas their love was CONDITIONED upon mutual love for each other.

Please consider carefully these scriptures.

7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus did NOT wait until we all were as righteous men before he would come and die for us.

This is a PARABLE which is NOT A TRUE STORY but a FICTIONAL story used to illustrate teaching points. There was no such actual literal Samaratan. Jesus simply used the fictional Samaratan in this parable to force the Jew to admit that being a "neighbor" is not CONDITIONAL love but that is precisely what your kind of gospel is all about CONDITIONAL love.

Parables are not about things that are not possible! YOU said no one is good before they are saved, BUT JESUS USES A REAL LIFE SCENARIO, to show that people can DO GOOD.

You believe that lost people must FIRST love God before God will love them - YOU ARE THE JEW who does not know the meaning of God's Love which is UNCONDITIONAL and IN SPITE OF kind of love:

"We love him BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US" while we were yet enemies, unloving and hating him!

For God so loved the WORLD, see John 3:16.

That is NOT about us individually who do not love Him.

God does not even know us if we do not love him, 1 Corinthians 8:3.

I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me, Proverbs 8:17.

God loves us when we love Jesus; we love Jesus by obeying, see John 14:23.

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, John 5:3.

I know for a fact that you have NEVER REPENTED! Why? Because the Bible says that gospel repentance is "repentance FROM DEAD WORKS" (Heb. 6:1) and you have NEVER repented "from dead works."
The "works" are characterized as "dead" because doing them will not obtain spiiritual life, justification, salvation from God but only CONDEMNATION and the WRATH of God unto second death! Why? Because no human being has the inherent capability of doing "good" according to God's standard of "good" when it comes to justification before God!

That is such a blind statement for you to make about me. I have repented. You are misled by your false doctrines.

Hebrews 6:1 is about repenting from ACTS that lead to death---that is about useless rituals!

IT IS NOT DEAD, OR USELESS TBEY JESUS BY REPENTING!!!

That is precisely why Jesus told the Young Ruler who desired eternal life by doing something "GOOD" enough to obtain it that "THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE and that is God." He then proved his point by pointing him to the TEN COMMANDMENTS and said if you want to DO GOOD enough to have eternal life then KEEP THE TEN COMMANDMENTS and he named some of them.

However, this "GOOD" young ruler professed he had KEPT THEM from his youth up and Jesus understood to keep the ten commandments is to be "perfect" and so he said if thou wilt be "perfect" then sell all you have and give to the poor! He said this to PROVE he had not kept a single one of the Ten commandments from his youth up but had violated every single one of them JUST AS YOU HAVE AND YOU STILL DO but are just as ignorant as the rich young ruler in thinking you do keep them. To sell all that he has and give to the poor would be proof that he keeps the second five of the ten commandments as they relate to your relationship with your fellow man. To forsake all and follow Christ would demonstrate you keep the first five of the ten commandments as they relate to your relationship with God and would require total faith in God for your subsistance as you sold all that you have.

You speak man’s wisdom, which is garbage. Jesus is not telling that man he violated every single one of them! The Bible says God will love the one who obeys Him! And what does the scriptures say about Jesus and the way he felt about that man?!!!!!!! Jesus looked at him and loved him. SEE MARK 10:21. It is NOT how YOU say. For he did not violate all those commandments. YOU NULLIFY GOD’S WORD with your man’s teachings.

God loves us when we obey. That is the Word of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is NOT the point. The point is can such a faith save a man. The answer is NO. Dead faith, is useless faith, it is faith without action. That is the Word of God.

You simply don't get it! This "dead faith" is "dead" because the person professing it has NEVER BEEN QUICKENED and therefore has never been justified by faith at all! Those who are justified by faith WITHOUT works also have been QUICKENED evidenced by works.

You sure use the word ‘regenerated’ a lot. Could you give me the scriptures that have the word ‘regenerated’ in it?

Once again You cannot possibly respond to the contextual evidence placed before in Ephesians 2:1-10 and divine quickening. So you make this rabbit trail to distract from the fact that you are not only ignorant of God's Word but a perverter of it! The term "regeneration" is found in Titus 3:5 and refers to the work described in Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10.

This is about the Gentiles who did not have the works of the law. They were dead. They were dead in their sins; they were WITHOUT God, Christ, and hope in the world, they were without the law, the covenants of the promise. They were dead in their sins. They did not have the external ceremonial washings, etc, to make themselves clean before an all Holy God.

You are so completely ignorant of the Word of God it is difficult to really believe you could really profess such crass ignorance. Utterly amazing you would restrict quickening to only Gentiles - utterly amazing igorance. Have you not read what Jesus told a Jew in Jon 3:3-9?????????? To be quickened is to be born again they are one and the same!

The works again are circumcision, various ceremonial washings, etc. The Jews had the relationship with God through the law of works---in this they COULD boast, but not anymore, for all can be saved by believing in his blood shed on the cross. It is no longer by gift offerings, where someone could give better gifts than another.

First you claim quickening in verse 1 was for the gentiles and now you switch horses and claim this all about Judaism. How can such complete ignorance of God's word be even approached? YOu are so ignorant of God's word, so confused that only an omnipotent God could straighten out such a messed up mind.

You speak man’s wisdom, which is garbage. Jesus is not telling that man he violated every single one of them!

If he hand not violated them then he needed nothing else because whoever can keep the law "perfect" does not need to be saved, does not need to be justified, does not need a Savior because there is NOTHING to be saved from because he has no sin - because as Jesus said, If you would "be perfect" that is all you need to do.

You have no understanding even of the simplest a,b,c's of God's Word much less the gospel of Christ.


You are not merely a false teacher preaching a perverted and false gospel but you are without doubt one whose profession of savlation is based upon your false gospel.

Anyone who says that 1 Cor. 8:3 demands that one must first love God for God to known him does not know English much less the Greek text as the text says no such thing.

1 Cor. 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

This text does not say IN ORDER for God to know him he must first Love God! He simply states the fact that if any man love God, the same is known of Him because God knows all His sheep and no man can love God without God FIRST loving them:


1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

You need to repent of your dead works and trust in the true Gospel of Jesus Chrsit and as long as you cling to your obedience, and penance you will remain in an unrepentant state.

 

[Yeshua1]

per the Bible...

ALL that we can do, and are called to do by God is to believ in jesus as the Saviour/Son of God, and by receiving Him, we now have etrnal life in his name!

James is referencing after being saved by grace of god, as the one now a christian WILL have evidence of a changed life, by performing good works, loving the bethren, reading the bible and practicing it etc...

saved by faith alone/grace alone, but will be able to produce fruits/works showing others that the Lord has indeed saved and changed us!

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist,
I cannot bear to read your ridiculous personal attacks.

Believe in whatever you like.

I chose to believe the Word of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Biblicist,
I cannot bear to read your ridiculous personal attacks.

Believe in whatever you like.

I chose to believe the Word of God.

We ALL here do, its just we prefer to believe in what paul and other Apsotle taught, not your specific understanding of it!

 

[Moriah]

per the Bible...

ALL that we can do, and are called to do by God is to believ in jesus as the Saviour/Son of God, and by receiving Him, we now have etrnal life in his name!

You do not even believe we can believe in Him after learning of Him. Is that not correct?

Tell me, God’s word says we are to search for God. How do you suppose a person can search for God to be saved if God has to first save Him? Do you not see something is wrong with your beliefs?
Please consider carefully.

James is referencing after being saved by grace of god, as the one now a christian WILL have evidence of a changed life, by performing good works, loving the bethren, reading the bible and practicing it etc...

James says can such a faith save a man. Is that man already saved? If he is already saved, then why does Paul say can such a faith save a man? If he is already saved, then that man could lose his salvation, BECAUSE SUCH A FAITH CANNOT SAVE A MAN.

saved by faith alone/grace alone, but will be able to produce fruits/works showing others that the Lord has indeed saved and changed us!

Therefore, James is speaking nonsense, according to Biblicist, and you. James is speaking about something no way possible, according to you two.

That is no defense to say James is speaking of something that is not real or possible. There IS such a thing as dead faith, and it is the kind of faith some here call saving faith.

 

[Moriah]

We ALL here do, its just we prefer to believe in what paul and other Apsotle taught, not your specific understanding of it!

I have shown easily the Truth. Only men taught you from the reformed group. Tell me, have you read such from other men as the things I speak? No, I know you have not.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have shown easily the Truth. Only men taught you from the reformed group. Tell me, have you read such from other men as the things I speak? No, I know you have not.

Never been taught by the reformed, as never been a member in such a church! I am a Christian holding to Dispy baptist views!