Dead Faith as taught by the Apostle James

[Moriah]

if one has placed faith in jesus to be his saviour, are you saying must also obey God 'enough" to stay saved, if he does not walk in obedience enough, can be lost again?

I am glad you asked. I hope we can get deeper into this discussion. I want to ask you though, what do you mean obey God ‘enough’? Could you give me a scenario so I could understand more what you mean?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am glad you asked. I hope we can get deeper into this discussion. I want to ask you though, what do you mean obey God ‘enough’? Could you give me a scenario so I could understand more what you mean?

is your salvation dependent upon what you do bhaviour/good works wise? is there an amount/quality of such God requires us to do in order to either be or stay saved by him?

 

[Moriah]

is your salvation dependent upon what you do bhaviour/good works wise? is there an amount/quality of such God requires us to do in order to either be or stay saved by him?

Let us say that I claim I am a Christian, I believe, and have obeyed in some ways, but have stopped learning and doing what God says. Do you think a person could still feel connected to God and Jesus? How do you think they would still feel connected to God and Jesus?

 

[DHK]

Let us say that I claim I am a Christian, I believe, and have obeyed in some ways, but have stopped learning and doing what God says. Do you think a person could still feel connected to God and Jesus? How do you think they would still feel connected to God and Jesus?

I know my standing before God, not by how I feel; but rather by what the facts of God's Word are. My feelings are irrelevant.

 

[Moriah]

I know my standing before God, not by how I feel; but rather by what the facts of God's Word are. My feelings are irrelevant.

I do not agree with you. Feelings are relevant.
Show scriptures that tell us what you claim, that feelings are irrelevant.

 

[DHK]

I do not agree with you. Feelings are relevant.
Show scriptures that tell us what you claim, that feelings are irrelevant.

The Ten Commandments.

Tell the Judge as you face the crime of murder that you did it because you "felt like it." Your feelings got in the way. Your anger caused you to do it. You were justified in murder because of your feeling of anger, and therefore are innocent. You run your life by your feelings, right?

Do you know what that Judge will say to you??

 

[Moriah]

The Ten Commandments.

Tell the Judge as you face the crime of murder that you did it because you "felt like it." Your feelings got in the way. Your anger caused you to do it. You were justified in murder because of your feeling of anger, and therefore are innocent. You run your life by your feelings, right?

Do you know what that Judge will say to you??

What does being a murderer to do with being saved? I cannot make the connection in this scenario to our discussion.

Are not there some states that have crimes of passion, and they give you lenience in sentencing?

Seriously, though, what does this have to do with being saved?

I tell you, our feelings are relevant to our salvation.

 

[DHK]

What does being a murderer to do with being saved? I cannot make the connection in this scenario to our discussion.

Are not there some states that have crimes of passion, and they give you lenience in sentencing?

Seriously, though, what does this have to do with being saved?

I tell you, our feelings are relevant to our salvation.

Feelings have nothing to do with salvation. A person may or may not have an emotional experience. It is irrelevant. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. Nowhere does it teach that salvation is by emotions. That is error.

In fact that is akin to Charismatic teaching where they put much emphasis on emotion--speaking in tongues, rolling down the aisles, barking like dogs, hissing like snakes, working themselves up into an emotional experience. They put the experience so foundational that they build their doctrine on a foundation of experience in many cases. Thus the Charismatic house falls for it has the wrong foundation.

The right foundation is Christ. (1Cor.3:11). He is the only foundation.
Salvation comes by putting our faith in him. Emotion is not necessary.

 

[Moriah]

Feelings have nothing to do with salvation. A person may or may not have an emotional experience. It is irrelevant. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. Nowhere does it teach that salvation is by emotions. That is error.

Emotion is not necessary.

Emotion does have to do with salvation. I can prove it to you easily with scripture. I just do not want to share it with you at this time. There are other things first to talk about, like the scriptures speaking of hearts and minds.
Since you say our emotions do not have to do with anything, you need to explain what it means when we read hearts and minds in the Bible.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not agree with you. Feelings are relevant.
Show scriptures that tell us what you claim, that feelings are irrelevant.

Feelings of assurance are relevant to FELLOWSHIP but they are not relevant to SONSHIP.

After a person becomes a "child" of God through new birth their "walk" with the Lord is called FELLOWSHIP. Fellowship does depend upon walking "in the light as he is in the light" and when we do not walk in the light our fellowship is broken and thus we do not FEEL saved as we lose the feeling of assurance. However, our FEELINGS do not change the fact that we are a child of God but simply out of fellowship. We restore fellowship as a child when we repent and return to walking in the light.

For example, do you have any children? Have your children ever disobeyed you and when you found out, how did they FEEL when coming into your presence? Did their FEELING change the fact they were still your children? Did their sin change them from being your children? No! However, their sin did break fellowship between you and if they did not repent you administered disciplined because you LOVED them - Heb. 12:5-8.

Feelings have to do with our experiential fellowship but not with our Sonship. Or do you believe that we cease to be His children when he has to chasten us for not repenting of our sins?

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Chastening is applied to UNREPENTANT children not faithful children and chastening is not applied to lost people because lost people are not His children.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Feelings have nothing to do with salvation. A person may or may not have an emotional experience. It is irrelevant. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. Nowhere does it teach that salvation is by emotions. That is error.

In fact that is akin to Charismatic teaching where they put much emphasis on emotion--speaking in tongues, rolling down the aisles, barking like dogs, hissing like snakes, working themselves up into an emotional experience. They put the experience so foundational that they build their doctrine on a foundation of experience in many cases. Thus the Charismatic house falls for it has the wrong foundation.

The right foundation is Christ. (1Cor.3:11). He is the only foundation.
Salvation comes by putting our faith in him. Emotion is not necessary.

I know what you're getting at, but in so doing, are you not going to the opposite extreme and making salvation a formula, like the Church of Christ does?

 

[Yeshua1]

I know what you're getting at, but in so doing, are you not going to the opposite extreme and making salvation a formula, like the Church of Christ does?

DHK just stating what the bible states!

 

[DHK]

Emotion does have to do with salvation. I can prove it to you easily with scripture. I just do not want to share it with you at this time. There are other things first to talk about, like the scriptures speaking of hearts and minds.
Since you say our emotions do not have to do with anything, you need to explain what it means when we read hearts and minds in the Bible.

If you could prove it you would; but you just deny what I have already demonstrated for you.

The heart and mind often are used interchangeably in the Bible. I have already demonstrated that to you also.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.
--The battle is in the mind. Paul overcomes sin with the mind. He serves God with the mind.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.
20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands doesn't defile the man."
--Jesus said: "Out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, etc."
Where does murder originate. It originates from the mind. It is planned from the mind. It is conceived in the mind. The mind plans it out, thinks it out and directs the body how to carry it out. It also thinks about the evil thoughts in doing so.
--The words are used interchangeably.

When the murder is committed, it is committed as planned, thoughtfully carried out, but as it is carried out, one's passion (anger) may be involved; or it may not be involved, depending on the person.

So it is with salvation.
When one receives Christ as Savior it may be accompanied with great emotion, or it may not be accompanied with any emotion at all. Emotion is a by-product, but an unnecessary one. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that emotion is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

 

[DHK]

I know what you're getting at, but in so doing, are you not going to the opposite extreme and making salvation a formula, like the Church of Christ does?

The COC makes salvation a false gospel of works. They state that there are about five things (works) necessary for salvation. Moriah is very close to this position. Where he differs is that he doesn't included baptism, but the COC does. The COC includes the works of faith, repentance, confession, calling, and baptism in order to be saved. But they are all works. The Bible teaches no such thing.

 

[Moriah]

Feelings of assurance are relevant to FELLOWSHIP but they are not relevant to SONSHIP.

After a person becomes a "child" of God through new birth their "walk" with the Lord is called FELLOWSHIP. Fellowship does depend upon walking "in the light as he is in the light" and when we do not walk in the light our fellowship is broken and thus we do not FEEL saved as we lose the feeling of assurance. However, our FEELINGS do not change the fact that we are a child of God but simply out of fellowship. We restore fellowship as a child when we repent and return to walking in the light.

For example, do you have any children? Have your children ever disobeyed you and when you found out, how did they FEEL when coming into your presence? Did their FEELING change the fact they were still your children? Did their sin change them from being your children? No! However, their sin did break fellowship between you and if they did not repent you administered disciplined because you LOVED them - Heb. 12:5-8.

Feelings have to do with our experiential fellowship but not with our Sonship. Or do you believe that we cease to be His children when he has to chasten us for not repenting of our sins?

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Chastening is applied to UNREPENTANT children not faithful children and chastening is not applied to lost people because lost people are not His children.

At least you recognize that our feelings do have to do with our salvation.

I understand what you say about our fellowship being affected, but not our son ship; however, how you come off, as it is no big importance is beyond me.
How you can speak of it with such confidence is a confidence you cannot justify.
If you fall into judgment of the Lord, how do you know for sure that you will not be cut off forever? The scriptures speak of the capability of being cut off forever. How do you know that your son ship standing will not be affected?
I know that some will still be saved from the lake of fire, but where is the assurance that all will be? I believe that some might not be.
In addition, you have not proven that those whose fellowship is affected will not be subjected to God’s wrath; God’s wrath can affect those living now, and the wrath to come.

 

[Moriah]

If you could prove it you would; but you just deny what I have already demonstrated for you.

Just because you say this falseness, it does not make it so.
I can prove it, and you have proven nothing.

The heart and mind often are used interchangeably in the Bible. I have already demonstrated that to you also.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.

The scripture here that you falsely use, it does not say heart and mind.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.
20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands doesn't defile the man."
--Jesus said: "Out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, etc."
Where does murder originate. It originates from the mind. It is planned from the mind. It is conceived in the mind. The mind plans it out, thinks it out and directs the body how to carry it out. It also thinks about the evil thoughts in doing so.
--The words are used interchangeably.

Saying the words are used interchangeably means nothing really. You have explained and proven nothing. The only thing you have shown is that you deny the meaning.

So it is with salvation.
When one receives Christ as Savior it may be accompanied with great emotion, or it may not be accompanied with any emotion at all. Emotion is a by-product, but an unnecessary one. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that emotion is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

You are wrong.
Now, since you try to get others to believe that the Bible just uses the word ‘mind’ and ‘heart’ in exchangeable ways, try to explain the scriptures that use both the words in the same scripture!

 

[Moriah]

The COC makes salvation a false gospel of works. They state that there are about five things (works) necessary for salvation. Moriah is very close to this position. Where he differs is that he doesn't included baptism, but the COC does. The COC includes the works of faith, repentance, confession, calling, and baptism in order to be saved. But they are all works. The Bible teaches no such thing.

DHK,

I want you to explain how you think God chooses us.

I know how God chooses those He saves.

I am waiting to hear what you have to say.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just because you say this falseness, it does not make it so.
I can prove it, and you have proven nothing.

The scripture here that you falsely use, it does not say heart and mind.


Saying the words are used interchangeably means nothing really. You have explained and proven nothing. The only thing you have shown is that you deny the meaning.


You are wrong.
Now, since you try to get others to believe that the Bible just uses the word ‘mind’ and ‘heart’ in exchangeable ways, try to explain the scriptures that use both the words in the same scripture!

Kind of like whn the Bible says us to belive/receive/place faith in jesus in order to get saved, different words referring to same thing?

 

[Moriah]

Kind of like whn the Bible says us to belive/receive/place faith in jesus in order to get saved, different words referring to same thing?

No, it is not kind of like that.

Yeshua1, How about you explain to us how God chooses to save those He saves.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I want you to explain how you think God chooses us.

I know how God chooses those He saves.

I am waiting to hear what you have to say.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

I have quoted that verse many times for you, but you seem to deny it. Are you a hyper-Calvinist?

He chooses those who put their faith in him. Salvation is by faith alone.