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Featured Is God really Omnipotent?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012.

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  1. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    I found this on a debate site:

    Omnipotence: The ability to do anything. But we could not logically discuss a god who thwarted logic, so we must restrict ourselves to punk omnipotence rather than true omnipotence: An omnipotent god, then, can do anything except violate logic. No square circles; no married bachelors​
    So, how would you answer him? Would you disagree with his statement, "we could not logically discuss a god who thwarted logic"? Would you disagree with parts of his premise?

    If there is even one thing that God cannot do then why do we claim that he is Omnipotent?
     
    #1 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2012
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The only thing God cannot do is act contrary to His nature. Otherwise this is another one of those pointless threads!
     
    #2 OldRegular, Jul 19, 2012
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense; God's very being, violates Logic, whether logical thinkers like it or not.
    MB
     
    #3 MB, Jul 19, 2012
  4. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    So then, would it be against God's nature to create a world in which the true state of an event is dependent on a created being?
     
    #4 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  5. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    How is that so?
     
    #5 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  6. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    While God is unlimited and able to do anything He chooses, some things He chooses not to do--like go against His Godly nature.

    How does God's nature "violate" logic (I prefer "defies logic")? The very fact that He has always existed defies logic as we know it. EVERYTHING that exists had a beginning, but God had no beginning and has no end. The first part of that defies logic for our simple, finite minds. How can a mind limited by time and space ever hope to comprehend an infinite God Who is NOT limited in any way--except by the fact that He will not go against His perfect, holy nature? The fact that God had no beginning boggles my mind. The fact that He could possibly love such sinful creatures as us boggles my mind. The fact that a holy, righteous God would even want to spend eternity with us boggles my mind. Everything about God boggles my mind, but nothing does it like thinking about the fact that He has always existed. I can say it, but I can't comprehend that fact.
     
    #6 Jon-Marc, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2012
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If God intended that the created being love Him. You see inorder for true love to happen we must choose with in our own wills to do so since love is a product of the will. The really nice thing about our wills is the fact that we can love whom ever we wish. We really can Love our neighbors. It isn't a command that we cannot hope to fullfil. We can love or hate anyone it is up to us. Man is not with out choice.
    MB
     
    #7 MB, Jul 19, 2012
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What is logical is a science and science has said God is illogical. Most who use logic are atheist.
    MB
     
    #8 MB, Jul 19, 2012
  9. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    I agree with his statement that we could not logically discuss a god who thwarted logic. Imo, if God violates logic then it is the case that we have insufficient/incomplete information or that our understanding of 'logic' needs correcting.
     
    #9 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  10. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    This is fascinating... can you provide a link to a site/page that presents an arguement that has convinced you of what you say here? I am not at all convinced that logic says that God is illogical.
     
    #10 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You have to admit that man cannot physcially prove the existance of God. Logic cannot prove or disprove what cannot be seen, touched, or smelled. I myself know there is a God but that too is not logical. Faith is How we know and love God. Faith is a type of hope.
    Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    MB
     
    #11 MB, Jul 19, 2012
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Is Logic a science? If so like all sciences there are theories and facts. Christianity it self is a theory. It's why it is called theology. Not a proven fact to the scientific community. Logic demands that for all things to be declared a fact, it has to be proved physcially. God has never been proven physcially.
    If you can prove God exist physcially. You certainly have my blessings. This is not to say that I agree with them. I know God dwells with in my heart, but I can't physcially prove it.
    MB
     
    #12 MB, Jul 19, 2012
  13. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    To believe something for which the preponderance of available evidence does not support is not illogical or irrational. This is why I was hoping for a link. I agree with much of what you are saying so maybe our disagreement is in semantics? Please know that I am in no way trying to be semantically deft or clever. Logic does not require that there is no God nor has science proven that there is no God. I do not know of any logical reasoning that has proven that God necessarily violates logic.
     
    #13 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    per the OP...

    God can do anything that is consisent with His divine attributes! And in accordance with his nature , as his will to do something based upon lining up in agreement perfectly with attributes and nature!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2012
  15. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    Admitted and I would not attempt to deny such. However, I do think that it can be proven to man by God. No problem though. Continuing...
    Disagree, but I don't think you'd disagree with my disagreement. Logic can prove and disprove mathematics and tautologies... But, I agree that logic cannot prove or disprove God, and if this is the case then how can God act or be in violation of logic?

    If we had the tools of science available to us when Jesus was on earth, we could prove that He was conceived, turned water to wine, multiplied the fish and bread, died, rose from the dead, walked through walls and ascended into the heavens. This would not prove that he is God, but, these observations would definitely prove that such a human existence is at least an anomaly never previously or subsequently observed. None of this violates logic.

    If 'to know' means 'to have a correct belief' then we understand that it is logical. Knowing that there is a God is not illogical nor does it violate logic. This claim would not get you near as much mileage arguing with an athiest, of course, but it is not an invalid belief simply because the belief's correctness or incorrectness cannot be currently proven.
    I agree exactly!
     
    #15 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2012
  16. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    Sorry... I want to say I agree but if you gave me a 'for example' I think I could better address the point you are making.
     
    #16 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2012
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    can God create a rock that even he can not lift? not possible, as being all powerful, can not create such a rock!

    can God will that time and space cease to exist in far future?
     
    #17 Yeshua1, Jul 20, 2012
  18. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Regarding the OP:

    1.) Omnipotence is not really the ability to do anything; therefore it is perfectly consistent to say that God is Omnipotent and that God cannot do the logically impossible.

    2.) Most who have responded to this thread so far simply do not have a very good definition of what logic actually is. If you were to more adequately explain what logic is rather than what some apparently think it is...the responses will be bettter.

    3.) Some notables truly DID think (and some still do even though it is not the popular position to hold) that God can do the logically impossible. Blaise Pascal comes to mind: He firmly believed that to be properly called Omnipotent, one would have to be capable of doing the logically impossible and thus God could indeed do so. It is not the most common position to take.

    4.) This is rather an age-old question. Augustine addressed this question centuries ago as well, and he held that God was Omnipotent, and also that he was incapable of doing the logically impossible. I suppose I agree with that position, although I didn't always. I used to think he could.
     
    #18 HeirofSalvation, Jul 21, 2012
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Life itself proves God. From what we have truly observed, all life comes from life. No one has ever seen life arise from non-living matter. Therefore, if life exists now, then life must have always existed. This is God.

    As far as to what God can do or not do, God cannot deny himself. God is truth, so he cannot lie. God's power or ability cannot violate his other attributes which are as equally absolute.
     
    #19 Winman, Jul 21, 2012
  20. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    (I don't think Pascal believed as you state... do you have a link you could provide? I admire much about him and would be interested in seeing such.)

    This is getting to the heart of the matter. What is the meaning of the word "Omnipotent"? It, afterall, means something whether you and I think so or not, correct? I propose that 'Omnipotent' means "the power to do anything". If that is not what that means then someone please give me the word which signifies that meaning and if no one can show such a word then I call "dibbs" on the meaning so that I can dream up a great combination of latin words whose combination would be greater than "Omni Potens".

    People please...

    Who here can present a definition that most people on this board would agree to? or even that a group of people would agree to? What does omnipotence mean to 'biblicists'? What does omnipotence mean to cals and arms?
     
    #20 humblethinker, Jul 23, 2012
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