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Sure, but I still keep Israel and the church distinct in my thinking.

But when I say Israel, I mean "redeemed Israel", all the saved of the Hebrews down through John the Baptist.

And when I say the church I mean all those born again thereafter.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

HankD​

 

http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre2532.htm

Read:

To the general assembly EVEN church of the firstborn

 

OR,
I consider this thread as educational for me, not a debate. Although we agree on DoG, I am still searching for a good position on covenant theology. Like many in this thread, I used to agree with Hal Lindsey and Scofield, but my thinking has changed to a totally open mind. As I said in an earlier post, a former pastor challanged us to find Scripture that proved the pre mil, pre trib view, and we could find none that proved it for sure.

It seems that more Calvinsts agree with the Covenant view, and more Arminians agree with the Dispy view, but that is not 100% either. I am surprised that the covenant-dispy debate causes such heat, as I never considered it that contriversial, sort of like the Creation that I believe to be a literal seven day event.

I will admit I lean towards the convenant view at this point, but there are many much more well versed in this area than me, which is why I asked for the two views of Calvin-dispy, and Arminian-covenant.

 

I'm not OR, and he's probably getting tired of my interjections on this thread, I'm getting ready to go 'sit down', BUT, the current day situation surrounding the issue of eschatology is of immense importance. If you're serious about understanding 'Why the controversy?', take your time and seriously peruse this link concerning Doomsday Dementia & Rature Mania. Pay no attention to the 'Preterist' aspect of it, get the gist of what they're presenting concerning WHAT DISPENSATIONALISM HAS MORHED INTO:

Rapture Theology & Christian Zionist Politics Critical Study Archive

 

In the final analysis, I believe we agree on DoG, the Presidential nominee (although maybe not to the same degree), and probably covenant theology. I have never detected any meanness in your posts as I have others, even when we do disagree.

 

KY, this is no different than people who say ALL Calvinists are hyper. You shouldn't use such a broad brush.

I am not a doomsdayer or anything of the sort.

 

I meant everyone but you Amy....

 

OR we don't sell our votes in this neck of the woods, we trade them for liquor!

 

Yeah right! :laugh:

I may live in Tennessee, but I ain't eggnurnt! :tongue3:

 

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

The word is kai and is overwhelmingly translated as "and" and cannot willy-nilly be translated differently without some grammatical support.​

You seem to have forced a grammatical inconsistency here to agree with your view which I believe you are thinking that these two entities are the same.​

You may be correct if this sentence follows the Granville Sharp First rule of Koine grammar which requires one definite article followed by kai and another noun without the definite article. ​

However BOTH articles are missing in the original Koine which breaks the Granville Sharp First rule requiring only one definite article before the first noun and then the connective kai and probably should not be translated "even" as they are different things. Which is probably why the KJV translators used "and" instead of "even" as it seems to follow Granville Sharp Rule 6.​

http://www.pfrs.org/sharp.html​

In addition the Book to the Hebrews was written to convince "Hebrews" (some of which were learning of Christ but still following the Law of Moses, some of which had confessed Christ but turned back and then those who had endured) of the excellency of Christ over Moses.

So both redeemed Hebrews (general assembly) and saved church members (church of the firstborn) are being addressed by Paul in the Book of Hebrews. Both saved by grace though faith.

Perhaps John of Japan can correct me if I am wrong in this case concerning the Granville Sharp rule?

HankD​

 

Although the Grandville-Sharpe rule establishes the copulative kai as an equative for certain cases, it does not exclusively do so. In other words, the rule is not necessary for the two to be the same.

 

Hi Aresman,

Please read the link for Rule #6 which is the case for Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks
HankD

 

According to rule #6, for the construction to be an exception "the context must explain or point out plainly the person to whom the two nouns relate." I believe there is a possibility that the context provides the exception. However, given the context, even if the two datives here are not identical, it would seem that they are overlapping concepts.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The context is the three verses, which together provide a list of datives indicating all the things to which "ye are come." Given this, it would be impossible for "ye" to "come" to two ontologically distinct entities that have their own programs and destinies.
1. mount Sion
2. the city of the living God
3. the heavenly Jerusalem
4. an innumerable company of angels
5. the general assembly
6. the church of the firstborn
7. God the judge of all
8. the spirits of just men made perfect
9. Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
10. the blood of sprinkling

1-3 = the geographical location in heaven
4 = the non-human cohabitants
5-6 = the names of this union of saints
7 = God, the orchestrator
8 = Old Covenant saints
9 = Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant
10 = the means of the mediation

The word for "general assembly" (πανήγυρις) is essentially a hapax legomenon (a word found only once), coming from pan ("all") and agora ("gathering"), referring to a festive unity. A church (εκκλησια) is also an "assembly" of "called out" ones.

Even if the grammatical construction does indicate that the "general assembly" and "church" are stating the same thing (such that one could serve as an appositive to the other), they express similar concepts and are not ontologically distinct. There is simply nothing in the context to separate these two datives into two ontologically distinct entities.

If what you suggest is true, quite a few translations get it wrong:

From http://bible.cc/hebrews/12-23.htm

New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

International Standard Version (©2008)
to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.

among others.

 

Oh yeah? I bet their "scrambled". :laugh:

BTW, they were scrambled over the MANY MOONS you have seen, eh? :love2: :wavey: :flower:

 

True but many others side with the KJV.

Anyway I see them as distinct.

Revelation 21 shows a distinction between Israel and the church in the New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

HankD​

 

Hank, considering your past application of the GS rule concerning the baptism of Mt 3:12.......

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1632546&highlight=unquenchable#post1632546

....perhaps you should pay closer attention to context here also.