• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Parenthesis Church

Status
Not open for further replies.

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hank: That is a very profound thought, worth thinking about!

Sure, but I still keep Israel and the church distinct in my thinking.

But when I say Israel, I mean "redeemed Israel", all the saved of the Hebrews down through John the Baptist.

And when I say the church I mean all those born again thereafter.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

HankD​
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
AresMan

Very interesting information you presented above. I had not heard of the Mid-Acts group before.

I know Scofield wrote a book, Rightly Dividing The Word of Truth. Haven't read it so can't speak to it other than I know where the title came from. It seems to me that rather then "Rightly Dividing" some of these people are Splintering the Truth. The Apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

We have the Bible, God gave it to us, and we should take the advice He gave us through the Apostle Paul.
 

saturneptune

New Member
They are on this Forum!
OR,
I consider this thread as educational for me, not a debate. Although we agree on DoG, I am still searching for a good position on covenant theology. Like many in this thread, I used to agree with Hal Lindsey and Scofield, but my thinking has changed to a totally open mind. As I said in an earlier post, a former pastor challanged us to find Scripture that proved the pre mil, pre trib view, and we could find none that proved it for sure.

It seems that more Calvinsts agree with the Covenant view, and more Arminians agree with the Dispy view, but that is not 100% either. I am surprised that the covenant-dispy debate causes such heat, as I never considered it that contriversial, sort of like the Creation that I believe to be a literal seven day event.

I will admit I lean towards the convenant view at this point, but there are many much more well versed in this area than me, which is why I asked for the two views of Calvin-dispy, and Arminian-covenant.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.....I am surprised that the covenant-dispy debate causes such heat, as I never considered it that contriversial, sort of like the Creation that I believe to be a literal seven day event.....

I'm not OR, and he's probably getting tired of my interjections on this thread, I'm getting ready to go 'sit down', BUT, the current day situation surrounding the issue of eschatology is of immense importance. If you're serious about understanding 'Why the controversy?', take your time and seriously peruse this link concerning Doomsday Dementia & Rature Mania. Pay no attention to the 'Preterist' aspect of it, get the gist of what they're presenting concerning WHAT DISPENSATIONALISM HAS MORHED INTO:

Rapture Theology & Christian Zionist Politics Critical Study Archive
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
OR,
I consider this thread as educational for me, not a debate. Although we agree on DoG, I am still searching for a good position on covenant theology. Like many in this thread, I used to agree with Hal Lindsey and Scofield, but my thinking has changed to a totally open mind. As I said in an earlier post, a former pastor challanged us to find Scripture that proved the pre mil, pre trib view, and we could find none that proved it for sure.

It seems that more Calvinsts agree with the Covenant view, and more Arminians agree with the Dispy view, but that is not 100% either. I am surprised that the covenant-dispy debate causes such heat, as I never considered it that contriversial, sort of like the Creation that I believe to be a literal seven day event.

I will admit I lean towards the convenant view at this point, but there are many much more well versed in this area than me, which is why I asked for the two views of Calvin-dispy, and Arminian-covenant.

S/N

I believe a great many Baptists, including Southern Baptists, are dispensationalists simply because they were exposed to the Scofield Bible. I suspect that the extent of their knowledge of dispensational doctrine is that they were/are Rapture Ready.

I am assuming that the vitriolic response to the OP by many on this thread indicates that they had not been properly schooled in the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. It is a doctrine that is carefully avoided and is being abandoned by the progressive dispensationalists.

I would also note that in the years I have been on this board some of the most contentious debates have been about eschatology. The debate over the Doctrines of Grace currently on this Forum is getting as contentious as the debate between the pre-trib folks and others. Frankly I am no shrinking violet when it comes to Scripture or politics!
 

saturneptune

New Member
S/N

I believe a great many Baptists, including Southern Baptists, are dispensationalists simply because they were exposed to the Scofield Bible. I suspect that the extent of their knowledge of dispensational doctrine is that they were/are Rapture Ready.

I am assuming that the vitriolic response to the OP by many on this thread indicates that they had not been properly schooled in the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. It is a doctrine that is carefully avoided and is being abandoned by the progressive dispensationalists.

I would also note that in the years I have been on this board some of the most contentious debates have been about eschatology. The debate over the Doctrines of Grace currently on this Forum is getting as contentious as the debate between the pre-trib folks and others. Frankly I am no shrinking violet when it comes to Scripture or politics!
In the final analysis, I believe we agree on DoG, the Presidential nominee (although maybe not to the same degree), and probably covenant theology. I have never detected any meanness in your posts as I have others, even when we do disagree.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I'm not OR, and he's probably getting tired of my interjections on this thread, I'm getting ready to go 'sit down', BUT, the current day situation surrounding the issue of eschatology is of immense importance. If you're serious about understanding 'Why the controversy?', take your time and seriously peruse this link concerning Doomsday Dementia & Rature Mania. Pay no attention to the 'Preterist' aspect of it, get the gist of what they're presenting concerning WHAT DISPENSATIONALISM HAS MORHED INTO:

Rapture Theology & Christian Zionist Politics Critical Study Archive

Butt in anytime unless you are one of those Eastern Kentucky rednecks from Clay or Breathitt. Heard on Fox this morning these people sell their votes. [Just like every other county in the country, I suspect.]

The OP for this thread is about the abominable dispensational doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. I have and will debate dispensationalists over their Rapture Ready eschatology. Unfortunately I believe their eschatological doctrine, with its heavy emphasis on Israel as God's people, has impacted our foreign policy and that is unfortunate. I have no problem with our support of Israel but only because they are a democracy and a thorn in the flesh of Islam.

As I recall the year 2000 was approached with fear and trembling, much of it because of what you call
Doomsday Dementia & Rature Mania.

I believe in the Visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ, at a time God will choose. It is important to remember that He could call for any of us as individuals at any time!:jesus::thumbs:

Heh! I was back in Wise County, Virginia the 2nd weekend in July for a family reunion. They don't sell votes there:smilewinkgrin: the dems just steal them, at least they used to.:tonofbricks:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Amy.G

New Member
'Why the controversy?', take your time and seriously peruse this link concerning Doomsday Dementia & Rature Mania. Pay no attention to the 'Preterist' aspect of it, get the gist of what they're presenting concerning WHAT DISPENSATIONALISM HAS MORHED INTO:

Rapture Theology & Christian Zionist Politics Critical Study Archive
KY, this is no different than people who say ALL Calvinists are hyper. You shouldn't use such a broad brush.

I am not a doomsdayer or anything of the sort.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
OR,
I consider this thread as educational for me, not a debate. Although we agree on DoG, I am still searching for a good position on covenant theology. Like many in this thread, I used to agree with Hal Lindsey and Scofield, but my thinking has changed to a totally open mind. As I said in an earlier post, a former pastor challanged us to find Scripture that proved the pre mil, pre trib view, and we could find none that proved it for sure.

DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY

The following are the major differences between these two systems of theology. They represent the mainstreams of both systems, though there are variations in each. Representative systematic theologies are those of L.S. Chafer and Charles Hodge.



DISPENSATIONALISM
COVENANT THEOLOGY

1. May be Arminian or modified Calvinist. Almost never 5-point Calvinist.
1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.
2. Stresses 'literal' interpretation of the Bible. 2.Accepts both literal and figurativeinterpretation of the Bible.

3. Usually does not accept the idea of the 'Analogy of Faith.'
3. Almost always accepts the idea of The ‘Analogy of Faith.’
4. 'Israel' always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob. 4. ‘Israel’ may mean either literal, physicaldescendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.

5. 'Israel of God' in Gal. 6:16 means physical Israel alone. 5. ‘Israel of God’ in Gal. 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28029, 9:6; Phil. 3:3.

6. God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly). 6. God has always had only 1 people, the Church gradually developed.

7. The Church was born at Pentecost. 7. The Church began in O. T. (Acts 7:38) and reached fulfillment in the N. T.

8. The Church was not prophesied as such in the O.T. but was a hidden mystery until the N.T. 8. There are many O. T. prophecies of the N. T. Church.

9. All O.T. prophecies for 'Israel' are for literal Israel, not the Church.' 9. Some O. T. prophecies are for literal Israel, others are for spiritual Israel.

10. God's main purpose in history is literal Israel. 10. God’s main purpose in history is Christand secondarily the Church.

11. The Church is a parenthesis in God's program for the ages. 11. The Church is the culmination of God’s saving purpose for the ages.

12. The main heir to Abraham's covenant was Isaac and literal Israel. 12. The main heir to Abraham’s covenantand was Christ and spiritual Israel.

13. There was no eternal Covenant of Redemption within the Trinity. 13. The eternal Covenant of Redemption was within the Trinity to effect election.

14. There was no Covenant of Works with Adam in the Garden of Eden. 14. God made a conditional Covenant of Works with Adam as representative forall his posterity.

15. There was no Covenant of Grace concerning Adam. 15. God made a Covenant of Grace with Christ and His people, including Adam.

16. Israel was rash to accept the Covenant at Mt. Sinai. 16. Israel was right to accept the Covenant Mt. Sinai.

17. The 'New Covenant' of Jer. 31:31- 34 is only for literal Israel and is not the New Covenant of Lk.22:20. 17. The ‘New Covenant’ of Jer. 31 is the same as in Lk. 22; both are for spiritual Israel according to Heb. 8.

18. God's program in history is mainly through separate dispensations. 18. God’s program in history is mainly through related covenants.

19. Some Dispensationalists have said that O. T. sinners were saved by works. 19. No man has ever been saved by works, but only by grace.

20. Most Dispensationalists teach that men in the O.T. were saved by faith in a revelation peculiar to their dispensation, but this did not include faith in the Messiah as their sin-bearer. 20. All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.

21. The O.T. sacrifices were not recognized as the Gospel or types of the Messiah as sin-bearer, but only seen as such in retrospect. 21. O. T. believers believed in the Gospel of Messiah as sin-bearer mainly by the sacrifices as types and prophecies.

22. The Holy Spirit indwells only believers in the dispensation of Grace, not O.T. and not after the Rapture. 22. The Holy Spirit has indwelt believers in all ages, especially in the present N. T. era, and will not be withdrawn.

23. Jesus.made an offer of the literal Kingdom to Israel; since Israel rejected it, it is postponed. 23. Jesus made only an offer of the spiritual Kingdom, which was rejected by literal Israel but has gradually been accepted by spiritual Israel.

24. O.T. believers were not in Christ, not part of the Body or Bride of Christ. 24. Believers in all ages are all ‘in Christ’ and part of the Body and Bride of Christ.

25. The Law has been abolished. 25. The Law has 3 uses: to restrain sin in society, to lead to Christ, and to instruct Christians in godliness. The ceremonial Laws have been abolished; the civil laws have been abolished except for their general equity; the moral laws continue.

26. O. T. laws are no longer in effect unless repeated in the N.T. 26. O. T. laws are still in effect unless abrogated in the N.T.

27. The Millenium is the Kingdom of God. Dispensationalists are always Pre-Millenial and usually Pre-Tribulational. 27. The Church is the Kingdom of God. Covenanters are usually Amillenial, sometimes Pre-Millenial or Post-Millenial, rarely Pre-Tribulational.

28. The O.T. animal sacrifices will be restored in the Millenium. 28. The O. T. sacrifices were fulfilled and forever abolished in Christ.

29. The Millenium will fulfill the Covenant to Abraham. Israel has a future. 29. Christ fulfilled the Covenant to Abraham. Some Covenanters believe in a future forliteral Israel, most don’t.
30. David will sit on the Millenial throne in Jerusalem. 30. Christ alone sits on the throne. Saints rule under Him.
...............
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre2532.htm

Read:

To the general assembly EVEN church of the firstborn

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

The word is kai and is overwhelmingly translated as "and" and cannot willy-nilly be translated differently without some grammatical support.​

You seem to have forced a grammatical inconsistency here to agree with your view which I believe you are thinking that these two entities are the same.​

You may be correct if this sentence follows the Granville Sharp First rule of Koine grammar which requires one definite article followed by kai and another noun without the definite article.​

However BOTH articles are missing in the original Koine which breaks the Granville Sharp First rule requiring only one definite article before the first noun and then the connective kai and probably should not be translated "even" as they are different things. Which is probably why the KJV translators used "and" instead of "even" as it seems to follow Granville Sharp Rule 6.​


In addition the Book to the Hebrews was written to convince "Hebrews" (some of which were learning of Christ but still following the Law of Moses, some of which had confessed Christ but turned back and then those who had endured) of the excellency of Christ over Moses.

So both redeemed Hebrews (general assembly) and saved church members (church of the firstborn) are being addressed by Paul in the Book of Hebrews. Both saved by grace though faith.

Perhaps John of Japan can correct me if I am wrong in this case concerning the Granville Sharp rule?

HankD​
 
Last edited:

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Although the Grandville-Sharpe rule establishes the copulative kai as an equative for certain cases, it does not exclusively do so. In other words, the rule is not necessary for the two to be the same.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Although the Grandville-Sharpe rule establishes the copulative kai as an equative for certain cases, it does not exclusively do so. In other words, the rule is not necessary for the two to be the same.
Hi Aresman,

Please read the link for Rule #6 which is the case for Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks
HankD
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Hi Aresman,

Please read the link for Rule #6 which is the case for Hebrews 12:23.

Thanks
HankD
According to rule #6, for the construction to be an exception "the context must explain or point out plainly the person to whom the two nouns relate." I believe there is a possibility that the context provides the exception. However, given the context, even if the two datives here are not identical, it would seem that they are overlapping concepts.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The context is the three verses, which together provide a list of datives indicating all the things to which "ye are come." Given this, it would be impossible for "ye" to "come" to two ontologically distinct entities that have their own programs and destinies.
1. mount Sion
2. the city of the living God
3. the heavenly Jerusalem
4. an innumerable company of angels
5. the general assembly
6. the church of the firstborn
7. God the judge of all
8. the spirits of just men made perfect
9. Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
10. the blood of sprinkling

1-3 = the geographical location in heaven
4 = the non-human cohabitants
5-6 = the names of this union of saints
7 = God, the orchestrator
8 = Old Covenant saints
9 = Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant
10 = the means of the mediation

The word for "general assembly" (πανήγυρις) is essentially a hapax legomenon (a word found only once), coming from pan ("all") and agora ("gathering"), referring to a festive unity. A church (εκκλησια) is also an "assembly" of "called out" ones.

Even if the grammatical construction does indicate that the "general assembly" and "church" are stating the same thing (such that one could serve as an appositive to the other), they express similar concepts and are not ontologically distinct. There is simply nothing in the context to separate these two datives into two ontologically distinct entities.

If what you suggest is true, quite a few translations get it wrong:

From http://bible.cc/hebrews/12-23.htm

New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

International Standard Version (©2008)
to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.

among others.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
According to rule #6, for the construction to be an exception "the context must explain or point out plainly the person to whom the two nouns relate." I believe there is a possibility that the context provides the exception. However, given the context, even if the two datives here are not identical, it would seem that they are overlapping concepts.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The context is the three verses, which together provide a list of datives indicating all the things to which "ye are come." Given this, it would be impossible for "ye" to "come" to two ontologically distinct entities that have their own programs and destinies.
1. mount Sion
2. the city of the living God
3. the heavenly Jerusalem
4. an innumerable company of angels
5. the general assembly
6. the church of the firstborn
7. God the judge of all
8. the spirits of just men made perfect
9. Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
10. the blood of sprinkling

1-3 = the geographical location in heaven
4 = the non-human cohabitants
5-6 = the names of this union of saints
7 = God, the orchestrator
8 = Old Covenant saints
9 = Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant
10 = the means of the mediation

The word for "general assembly" (πανήγυρις) is essentially a hapax legomenon (a word found only once), coming from pan ("all") and agora ("gathering"), referring to a festive unity. A church (εκκλησια) is also an "assembly" of "called out" ones.

Even if the grammatical construction does indicate that the "general assembly" and "church" are stating the same thing (such that one could serve as an appositive to the other), they express similar concepts and are not ontologically distinct. There is simply nothing in the context to separate these two datives into two ontologically distinct entities.

If what you suggest is true, quite a few translations get it wrong:

From http://bible.cc/hebrews/12-23.htm

New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

International Standard Version (©2008)
to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.

among others.

True but many others side with the KJV.

Anyway I see them as distinct.

Revelation 21 shows a distinction between Israel and the church in the New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

HankD​
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
..
The word is kai and is overwhelmingly translated as "and" and cannot willy-nilly be translated differently without some grammatical support.​

You seem to have forced a grammatical inconsistency here to agree with your view which I believe you are thinking that these two entities are the same.​

You may be correct if this sentence follows the Granville Sharp First rule of Koine grammar which requires one definite article followed by kai and another noun without the definite article.​

However BOTH articles are missing in the original Koine which breaks the Granville Sharp First rule requiring only one definite article before the first noun and then the connective kai and probably should not be translated "even" as they are different things. Which is probably why the KJV translators used "and" instead of "even" as it seems to follow Granville Sharp Rule 6.​
.......

According to rule #6, for the construction to be an exception "the context must explain or point out plainly the person to whom the two nouns relate." I believe there is a possibility that the context provides the exception. However, given the context, even if the two datives here are not identical, it would seem that they are overlapping concepts......

Hank, considering your past application of the GS rule concerning the baptism of Mt 3:12.......

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1632546&highlight=unquenchable#post1632546

....perhaps you should pay closer attention to context here also.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top