We have, but not shared the single cup (poured from a pitcher into individual cups and passed around). Also, we used juice simply because there were minors partaking.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Did Jesus drink alcohol?
- Thread starter Wittenberger
- Start date
We have, but not shared the single cup (poured from a pitcher into individual cups and passed around). Also, we used juice simply because there were minors partaking.
Exactly. No one takes the Lord's Supper the way Jesus and the apostles did -- which was within the context of a meal.
It has been separated from that context and made a ritual which only a cleric may preside at.
There are many times we take Communion as part of a meal as a family.
A couple years back I was pastoring a small house church. When I preached on Communion I had us meet at noon. I had cooked lunch. I preached while we ate and towards the end I served Communion.
We always use wine for these occasions but have juice available if parents choose that for their kids. Honestly, no one has used the juice.
When I get my next church we will be having a monthly potluck which will include Communion, and use wine.
I would agree with you on that.That is not true. God is loving and patient. A Christian can have a drinking problem that they want to give up, it is only questionable if the Christian does not think it is wrong to get drunk and does not try to stop.
Wittenberger
New Member
Also, if you insist that this must be done EXACT, then does your church gather around a table, sit down, pass a single loaf of bread around for each person to rip a piece off, and then pass a single cup of wine around for each person to take a sip? Just curious.
I was not insisting that Baptiists/evangelicals use wine and bread. I really don't think it matters.
The point I was making is this: the same Christians who insist that baptism be performed exactly as Jesus did it, don't follow the same strict rules for the Lord's Supper.
There is variation among Lutherans on the practice of the Lord's supper. I would bet that almost all use wine and wafers, although some congregations also offer non-alcoholic wine, which I assume is the same thing as grape juice.
In our churh, the congregation files out of the pews to go up to the altar area. In groups of twelve, we kneel at the altar rail to remind us of the twelve seated at the table in the Upper Room.
The minister and an assistant pass by each person giving the cup of wine and then a wafer.
Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. We believe that Christ's heavenly body is not restricted to being just at the "right hand of the Father'. We believe his spirit and heavenly body are omnipresent and inseparable.
We do not preach transubstantiation because the Bible does not explain exactly how Christ is present in the Lord's Supper, we believe that our Catholics brothers and sisters are making a human guess, an assumption. They may be right, but we just say, HOW Christ is present in the eucharist is a mystery.
Lutherans believe that in the Lord's Suppr we are re-experiencing our salvation, as Jews believe that they are re-experiencing the Exodus when they observe the Passover seder. Lutherans DO NOT believe that taking communion helps saves us. We do not believe that anything we do save us. God does all the work of salvation.
Last edited by a moderator:
I was not insisting that Baptiists/evangelicals use wine and bread. I really don't think it matters.
The point I was making is this: the same Christians who insist that baptism be performed exactly as Jesus did it, don't follow the same strict rules for the Lord's Supper.
There is variation among Lutherans on the practice of the Lord's supper. I would bet that almost all use wine and wafers, although some congregations also offer non-alcoholic wine, which I assume is the same thing as grape juice.
In our churh, the congregation files out of the pews to go up to the altar area. In groups of twelve, we kneel at the altar rail to remind us of the twelve seated at the table in the Upper Room.
The minister and an assistant pass by each person giving the cup of wine and then a wafer.
Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. We believe that Christ's heavenly body is not restricted to being just at the "right hand of the Father'. We believe his spirit and heavenly body are omnipresent and inseparable.
We do not preach transubstantiation because the Bible does not explain exactly how Christ is present in the Lord's Supper, we believe that our Catholics brothers and sisters are making a human guess, an assumption. They may be right, but we just say, HOW Christ is present in the eucharist is a mystery.
Lutherans believe that in the Lord's Suppr we are re-experiencing our salvation, as Jews believe that they are re-experiencing the Exodus when they observe the Passover seder. Lutherans DO NOT believe that taking communion helps saves us. We do not believe that anything we do save us. God does all the work of salvation.
A Lutheran sect. believes the bread is the real body of Jesus. I just wanted to point that out.
I would agree with you on that.
Thanks Zena, it is nice to read those words…lol…that someone agrees with me.
Wittenberger
New Member
Where do you find in the scriptures that the fruit of the vine must be alcoholic fruit when used in the rememberance of the Lord's death?
Again, I'm not saying that Christians MUST use wine for the Lord's Supper. I am trying to point out the fact that Jesus drank alcohol, so no Christian should be condemning or judging another Christian who drinks alcohol (in moderation) or uses wine for the Lord's Supper.
I am also saying that just as there is no reason that Christians must conduct the Lord's Supper in exactly the same manner or mode as Jesus, the same applies to baptism. It 's not the manner or mode that counts, its that you follow God's command and DO both!
Wittenberger
New Member
A Lutheran sect. believes the bread is the real body of Jesus. I just wanted to point that out.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but Lutherans do believe that Christ is somehow, in someway, bodily and spiritually present in the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper.
We do not believe that the bread literally turns into grisle and tendinous meat. It is a mystery. We don't know exactly how it happens, we just take the Lord's Word literally when He says, "This is my body, this is my blood".
If there is a Lutheran sect that believes in transubstantiation, who are they? If so, they are outside of orthodox/confessional Lutheranism.
Wittenberger
New Member
Jesus was a Jew.
His disciples were all Jews.
When they gathered in the Upper Room, they gathered to observe the Jewish Passover seder or meal.
Jews drink wine and eat unleavened bread in the Passover seder.
The idea that a first century Jew was a tee-totaling grape juice drinker, who served grape juice to other Jews at a Passover seder, is so highly improbable that it is absolutely, downright, SILLY!
Ask your Jewish friends or co-workers.
His disciples were all Jews.
When they gathered in the Upper Room, they gathered to observe the Jewish Passover seder or meal.
Jews drink wine and eat unleavened bread in the Passover seder.
The idea that a first century Jew was a tee-totaling grape juice drinker, who served grape juice to other Jews at a Passover seder, is so highly improbable that it is absolutely, downright, SILLY!
Ask your Jewish friends or co-workers.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but Lutherans do believe that Christ is somehow, in someway, bodily and spiritually present in the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper.
We do not believe that the bread literally turns into grisle and tendinous meat. It is a mystery. We don't know exactly how it happens, we just take the Lord's Word literally when He says, "This is my body, this is my blood".
If there is a Lutheran sect that believes in transubstantiation, who are they? If so, they are outside of orthodox/confessional Lutheranism.
Transubstantiation is what the Catholics believe, that the wafer turns into the real body of Jesus.
Why are you talking about grisle and tendinous meat? Who in this world believes it changes in the appearance?
Wittenberger
New Member
Transubstantiation is what the Catholics believe, that the wafer turns into the real body of Jesus.
Why are you talking about grisle and tendinous meat? Who in this world believes it changes in the appearance?
Roman Catholics believe that when the bread and wine are blessed by the priest, it literally becomes flesh and blood. The bread and wine are no longer present.
That is one reason why the Catholic church, 100's of years ago, stopped giving the Cup to the congregation. They were afraid that some of Christ's blood would be spilled on the floor.
Lutherans believe that the wine and bread, in some mysterious way, contain the Real Presence of Christ only when we are eating the wafer or drinking the cup.
We don't put the left-overs in a "tabernacle" and treat leftovers as holy objects. The leftovers are just bread and wine.
Roman Catholics venerate the leftovers.
If any of my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters feel that I have not stated the RCC position correctly, please let me know.
Last edited by a moderator:
Roman Catholics believe that when the bread and wine are blessed by the priest, it literally becomes flesh and blood. The bread and wine are no longer present.
That is one reason why the Catholic church, 100's of years ago, stopped giving the Cup to the congregation. They were afraid that some of Christ's blood would be spilled on the floor.
Lutherans believe that the wine and bread, in some mysterious way, contain the Real Presence of Christ only when we are eating the wafer or drinking the cup.
We don't put the left-overs in a "tabernacle" and treat leftovers as holy objects. The leftovers are just bread and wine.
Roman Catholics venerate the leftovers.
If any of my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters feel that I have not stated the RCC position correctly, please let me know.
The Catholics and Lutherans believe the wafer is the real body of Jesus. That is a false belief.
The Catholics and Lutherans just do not agree on how it happens.
Transubstantiation means when the bread is Christ’s body, the substance of bread is destroyed and we are left with Christ’s body. Luther’s understanding of the Eucharist is the bread and the wine co-exist with Christ’s very real physical body in the bread and wine. What transubstantiation calls an accident, that the bread and wine still look and taste like what they were before, Luther says they still are bread and wine but are also the body and blood of Christ.
Basically, the Catholic are Lutherans believe in the same falseness of there being the real body and blood of Jesus in the wafer and wine.
Wittenberger
New Member
Transubstantiation is what the Catholics believe, that the wafer turns into the real body of Jesus.
Why are you talking about grisle and tendinous meat? Who in this world believes it changes in the appearance?
What I was trying to say is that Lutherans don't believe in transubstantiation: the bread and wine do not disappear and in their place are flesh and blood, as the RCC believes.
If I understand the Catholic position correctly, the outward appearance of the bread and wine, of course, do not change, but they really are flesh (actual grisle and tendinous meat) and blood.
Wittenberger
New Member
The Catholics and Lutherans believe the wafer is the real body of Jesus. That is a false belief.
The Catholics and Lutherans just do not agree on how it happens.
Transubstantiation means when the bread is Christ’s body, the substance of bread is destroyed and we are left with Christ’s body. Luther’s understanding of the Eucharist is the bread and the wine co-exist with Christ’s very real physical body in the bread and wine. What transubstantiation calls an accident, that the bread and wine still look and taste like what they were before, Luther says they still are bread and wine but are also the body and blood of Christ.
Basically, the Catholic are Lutherans believe in the same falseness of there being the real body and blood of Jesus in the wafer and wine.
Your description of transubstantiation sounds correct to me.
Of course, I disagree with your final assessment, but that is a different "thread".
What I was trying to say is that Lutherans don't believe in transubstantiation: the bread and wine do not disappear and in their place are flesh and blood, as the RCC believes.
If I understand the Catholic position correctly, the outward appearance of the bread and wine, of course, do not change, but they really are flesh (actual grisle and tendinous meat) and blood.
But that is what the Lutherans also believe...that the wafer is really Jesus' flesh.
Wittenberger
New Member
But that is what the Lutherans also believe...that the wafer is really Jesus' flesh.
No, you are not correct.
We Lutherans believe that Jesus is bodily (heavenly body) and spiritually present in both the bread and the wine. His heavenly body is present in some mysterious fashion, but we do not believe that we are literally eating flesh and blood.
We do not try to explain HOW Christ is bodily present, as do the Roman Catholics.
Clarification: Lutherans do not believe that in the Lord's Supper we are eating HUMAN flesh and blood. We believe that in some mysterious way we are eating SUPERNATURAL flesh and blood. However, the bread and wine do not disappear. Bread and supernatural body are present; wine and supernatural blood are present in the Lord's Supper. It nourishes our supernatural soul. It does nothing as far as Justification is concerned.
Last edited by a moderator:
No, you are not correct.
We Lutherans believe that Jesus is bodily (heavenly body) and spiritually present in both the bread and the wine. His heavenly body is present in some mysterious fashion, but we do not believe that we are literally eating flesh and blood.
We do not try to explain HOW Christ is bodily present, as do the Roman Catholics.
Luther gathered that Protestants like Calvin and Zwingli make arguments that the bread and wine have Christ spiritually present. However, Luther stands even firmer against these teachings than he does the Catholics teachings. In fact, Lutherans and Roman Catholics believe in Christ’s "Real Presence" in the sacrament. The belief that "Real Presence" is the same for Luther and the Catholics, and it means physical body. Luther believes that Christ is bodily present in the elements and to say that Christ is spiritually present or that the bread and wine represent Christ’s body and blood is heresy and worthy of being excommunicated from the Sacrament.
Wittenberger
New Member
Luther gathered that Protestants like Calvin and Zwingli make arguments that the bread and wine have Christ spiritually present. However, Luther stands even firmer against these teachings than he does the Catholics teachings. In fact, Lutherans and Roman Catholics believe in Christ’s "Real Presence" in the sacrament. The belief that "Real Presence" is the same for Luther and the Catholics, and it means physical body. Luther believes that Christ is bodily present in the elements and to say that Christ is spiritually present or that the bread and wine represent Christ’s body and blood is heresy and worthy of being excommunicated from the Sacrament.
Lutherans DO NOT believe that the human, mortal body of Jesus is in the Lord's Supper. We believe that His heavenly body is present in the Eucharist. There is a big difference.
However, we do believe that Jesus, body and spirit is present, not just the spirit as Zwingli and other Reformed believed. Luther's position was the same as the ancient catholic church. It wasn't until The Council of Constance, (I believe), in the 1400's that transubstantiation became official doctrine of the Catholic Church. Luther rejected this doctrine.
To a Baptist/evangelical it probably doesn't seem like much of a difference.
My honest opinion is that whether you believe Christ is or is not bodily present in the Lord's Supper is not that important, just that you follow God's command to do it. It has nothing to do with salvation.
My Lutheran pastor and my denomination, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, would strongly disagree with me that it isn't that important. This denomination of Lutherans was formed in the 1800's. They fled Germany because the king ordered them to merge with the Reformed who do not believe in the "Real Presence". These Lutherans gave up everything and moved to the United States to hold true to this doctrine. It is VERY important to them.
Lutheran’s are taught that the real body and blood of Jesus are in the Eucharist. Anyone can do an Internet search on this.Lutherans DO NOT believe that the human, mortal body of Jesus is in the Lord's Supper. We believe that His heavenly body is present in the Eucharist. There is a big difference.
I do not know why you insist that the Lutherans do not believe there is the real flesh in the bread, and REAL blood in the wine.However, we do believe that Jesus, body and spirit is present, not just the spirit as Zwingli and other Reformed believed. Luther's position was the same as the ancient catholic church. It wasn't until The Council of Constance, (I believe), in the 1400's that transubstantiation became official doctrine of the Catholic Church. Luther rejected this doctrine.
Do you think that Jesus has flesh and blood in heaven?
Drinking Jesus’ blood and eating his flesh in the remembrance is not something we have to do or be called a sinner.My honest opinion is that whether you believe Christ is or is not bodily present in the Lord's Supper is not that important, just that you follow God's command to do it. It has nothing to do with salvation.
However, we must drink Jesus’ blood and eat his flesh, and we do that by believing and obeying his teachings.
Thanks for the information.My Lutheran pastor and my denomination, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, would strongly disagree with me that it isn't that important. This denomination of Lutherans was formed in the 1800's. They fled Germany because the king ordered them to merge with the Reformed who do not believe in the "Real Presence". These Lutherans gave up everything and moved to the United States to hold true to this doctrine. It is VERY important to them.
I have thought that the Lutherans believe it is a matter of salvation. I do think you might not understand it is real flesh and blood Lutherans believe they are eating and drinking.
Wittenberger
New Member
Lutheran’s are taught that the real body and blood of Jesus are in the Eucharist. Anyone can do an Internet search on this.
I do not know why you insist that the Lutherans do not believe there is the real flesh in the bread, and REAL blood in the wine.
Do you think that Jesus has flesh and blood in heaven?
Drinking Jesus’ blood and eating his flesh in the remembrance is not something we have to do or be called a sinner.
However, we must drink Jesus’ blood and eat his flesh, and we do that by believing and obeying his teachings.
Thanks for the information.
I have thought that the Lutherans believe it is a matter of salvation. I do think you might not understand it is real flesh and blood Lutherans believe they are eating and drinking.
Below is a statement on the Lord's Supper which can be found on the official website of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, www.lcms.org
How is Jesus present in His Supper?
We do not try to explain how Jesus is present under the
bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper,rather we believe,teach,
confess and rejoice that He is present.We Lutherans let the words
of Jesus stand without arguing about their possibility,or trying
to explain how they are true.As Luther put it so clearly,“We
maintain that the bread and the wine in the Supper are the true
body and blood of Christ”(SA III.6).Everyone who communes
receives into their mouths the body and blood of Jesus Christ,
whether they believe it or not,be they worthy or unworthy.
Jesus’Word is sure and certain. The Holy Spirit gives us
faith to trust in and believe Jesus’words,“Given and shed for
you for the forgiveness of sins.”
Faith in Christ’s promise is
what makes us worthy to receive His Supper.Christ’s words of
institution retain their validity and efficacious power and thus,
by virtue of these words,the body and blood of Christ are truly
present,distributed and received.
"Your body and your blood, once slain and shed for me, are
taken at your table, Lord, in blest reality."
Search not how this
takes place, this wondrous mystery;God can accomplish vastly
more than what we think could be.