The Natue of Faith in Romans 3:24-5:2

[The Biblicist]

then why continue to attribute it to someone's elses work?????? I will tell you why because you do not believe it is the work of Christ. You don't believe it is the GIFT of God. You don't believe it is "NOT OF WORKS" as Paul explicitly states in Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9.


No it is not! The mind needs to be continually renewed but faith is the attribute of the new heart "with the heart man believeth." God gives a believing heart not a heart that needs to believe.

Paul denies it is the consequence of the regeneration but rather it IS inseparable from being "created in Christ Jesus" - Ephesians 2:10.

The consequence of regeneration is "good works" or progressive sanctification. However, faith is an inseparable ATTRIBUTE of the new heart which comes in a believing state.

Your logic is no better than the Armininians. Armininians demand faith precedes regeneration whereas your logic demands it is the results of regeneration - neither is true - it is INSEPARABLE from regeneration - there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated believer - both are equally wrong and both depend upon a CHRONOLOGICAL order.

God's creative work is INCLUSIVE of faith as it is just as absurd to reason that faith is a product of regeneration as it is to reason that regeneration is a product of faith. The heart God gives IS a believing heart not SHALL BE as that would make the New heart no better than the old heart - both still in unbelief!

I showed you by your own commentary! You atttribute faith to the believer and his renewed mind not to God in his CREATION work of giving a new heart.

You are teaching that the elect received an UNBELIEVING new heart and therefore is no better than their old heart.

You are teaching the new heart must yet believe and thus is given, created in UNBELIEF! That is precisely why you demand faith is a work of man rather than the work of God.

The mind is continually in need of renewal but not so with the new heart - it is created in true holiness and righteousness and in faith and that is precisely why the mind can be renewed daily.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I showed you by your own commentary!

No you did'nt, all you have done is after all your wind blowing, you still teach Justification by works, a act of man !

 

[savedbymercy]

The bib

You atttribute faith to the believer and his renewed mind not to God

Thats silly, for the New Mind and Heart are from God Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thats Faith, being caused to walk in God's statues, meaning to become a Believers amd walk by Faith.

Thats why Abraham believed God, He had been given a New heart and He caused to believe God !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



you still teach Justification by works

This statement is a direct contradiction to how Paul defines "justification by faith"

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You are making the direct opposite conclusion that Paul makes here. His conclusion is that JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH is "WITHOUT THE DEEDS" = works of the Law while you conclusion is that justification by faith is works and thus you accuse Paul of concluding that Justification by faith is works.

 

[savedbymercy]

The bib



Thats silly, for the New Mind and Heart are from God Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thats Faith, being caused to walk in God's statues, meaning to become a Believers amd walk by Faith.

Thats why Abraham believed God, He had been given a New heart and He caused to believe God !

This New Heart that one receives at New Birth is the Heart Abraham and His Seed believes with ! This Heart is an Effect of the Blood of the Covenant, the Blood Christ shed Matt 26:28.

And since After God giving this New Heart, one is caused to walk in His Statues, of which one is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then Jesus is the cause or Author of this Faith.

The Word Author in Heb 12:2 is the greek word archēgos made up of Two Words one of which is: archē which means:


that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

So that is one of the Ways He is the Author of ones Faith, because of His Blood shed of the Covenant, which gives the New Heart to believe with !

 

[The Biblicist]

This statement is a direct contradiction to how Paul defines "justification by faith"

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You are making the direct opposite conclusion that Paul makes here. His conclusion is that JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH is "WITHOUT THE DEEDS" = works of the Law while you conclusion is that justification by faith is works and thus you accuse Paul of concluding that Justification by faith is works.

You can't deal with this fact and so you ignore it! You ignore it because you are teaching an absolute false doctrine. You are calling Paul a liar! He says justification by faith is WITHOUT WORKS while you are claiming it is works. He is inspired of God and you are being inspired by Satan to contradict the Apostle Pauls precise and explict language that directly contradicts your view.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You teach against this. You say that a man is Justifed by his act of faith or believing. Believing is a work, its a Law, because its a Command. 1 Jn 3:23

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Also Paul commanded the Philippian Jailor to Believe here Acts 16:31

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Check the greek, I assure you its a imperative here, which is a command !

Both Acts 16:31 and 1 Jn 3:23 are in aorist tense !

So you teach against Paul in the very verse you present here !

The difference in you and I in the verse Rom 3:28, you take faith there to be causative of Justification, I see it there being receptive of a established Truth that was already a Reality in the Mind of God !

 

[Doubting Thomas]

That has reference to progressive sanctification not justification. Rome confuses the two just as SBM confuses the two.

I guess it should be pointed out, that although they are distinct, one cannot ultimately have justification without sanctification. If one is not being progressively sanctified then one will not be finally justified. Paul states it's only a faith working through love which avails for ANYTHING in Christ Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul is also clear that it's only a Faith that works through Love that avails for ANYTHING in Christ Jesus (GALATIANS 5:6)

Paul, like janes, referring to faith of a true Christian, NOT referring to the "born again" moment!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Paul, like janes, referring to faith of a true Christian, NOT referring to the "born again" moment!

True. Both refer to the living faith of the one who is actually abiding in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

True. Both refer to the living faith of the one who is actually abiding in Christ.

the Holy Spirit abides in all true Christians, so we ALWAYS are abiding in jesus, as He and the Spirit are ONE!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

the Holy Spirit abides in all true Christians, so we ALWAYS are abiding in jesus, as He and the Spirit are ONE!

We always should be abiding in Christ, but Christ warned that branches in Him that didn't abide in Him would be taken away and cast out as branches (John 15:2, 6). Thus, branches that are in Christ should continue to abide in Christ. If we remain in Christ, we will contine to be justified and sanctified. If we are cast forth from Christ, we will no longer be either, because both our justification and sanctification depend on our being united to HIM by a living faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

We always should be abiding in Christ, but Christ warned that branches in Him that didn't abide in Him would be taken away and cast out as branches (John 15:2, 6). Thus, branches that are in Christ should continue to abide in Christ. If we remain in Christ, we will contine to be justified and sanctified. If we are cast forth from Christ, we will no longer be either, because both our justification and sanctification depend on our being united to HIM by a living faith.

In John 15 abiding in him has nothing to do with justification or regeneration. It has to do with fruit production or experiential sanctification as opposed to the process of discipline. They had already been clean (regenerationally) by the word as in John 13 when Christ said the whole body had already been bathed but needed only daily cleansing of the hands and feet (symbols of daily activities).

The consequences for not producing fruit or daily cleansing is disciplinary actions whereby the Lord cuts off the branch and they experience a dried up life that brings them into temporal condemnation by men.

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess it should be pointed out, that although they are distinct, one cannot ultimately have justification without sanctification. If one is not being progressively sanctified then one will not be finally justified. Paul states it's only a faith working through love which avails for ANYTHING in Christ Jesus.

Justification is not progressive but a completed action at the point of conversion (rom. 4:11; 5:1-2).

Where there is no regeneration there is no justification and progressive sanctification is the product of regeneration (Eph. 2:10) not the product of justification.

Our works avail nothing (no temporal blessings or eternal rewards) if they do not originate from love but they have nothing to do with obtaining either justification or regeneration. Indeed, we are "glorified" completely before we even stand before the Lord proving that our works have nothing to do with obtaining a glorified state.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib

The difference in you and I in the verse Rom 3:28, you take faith there to be causative of Justification, I see it there being receptive of a established Truth that was already a Reality in the Mind of God !

Faith is the basis for justification not works. The reason that faith is the basis for justification is that the kind of faith being defined in this context is one that receives/embraces/rests completely upon the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Regardless, you directly contradict Paul when you say faith IS works when He denies faith "of works."

 

[Yeshua1]

Justification is not progressive but a completed action at the point of conversion (rom. 4:11; 5:1-2).

Where there is no regeneration there is no justification and progressive sanctification is the product of regeneration (Eph. 2:10) not the product of justification.

Our works avail nothing (no temporal blessings or eternal rewards) if they do not originate from love but they have nothing to do with obtaining either justification or regeneration. Indeed, we are "glorified" completely before we even stand before the Lord proving that our works have nothing to do with obtaining a glorified state.

Still seems that catholics just cannot see that we are Justified before God at an intial one time only point in our lives, and THEN start that lifelong process to become more like jesus...

Our walk to oplease him and be reqarded for good works that we choose to walk in Him and do, while their walk at the end is to see IF saved or not!

 

[The Biblicist]

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


The divide in Christianity is over the meaning of "faith" in Romans 3:24-5:2. Those who reject the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works define "faith" or "beleiving" in Romans 3:24-5:2 as "faithfulness." They define imputation as God reckoning their own "faithfulness" as righteousness and thus God justifies "the godly."

However, Romans 4:16-23 provides the contextual definition of faith/believing in regard to justification. In short, faith is not defined by what we are able to do (faithfulness, obedience to the apostolic faith and practice) but rather as trust in God for what we cannot do but what God must do for us.

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Romans 4:16 introduces "faith" as the only hope for obtaining "the promise" of ruling over this world as heirs. He denies that personal obedience to the law can obtain this promise (vv. 13-15). Paul says "it" (the promise) is "of faith that it might be by grace. Obtaining this promise requires that it be by grace instead of by works so that all the seed will obtain it - v. 16b.

Paul now interjects an illustration from the life of Abraham to back up his assertion that the promise of being "heir" of the world must be "of faith....by grace" - Rom. 4:17-22. The illustration is the promise of an "heir" from Abraham's own loins.

Only God can raise the dead and call things which be not as though they were (v. 17) and that is precisely what it took for Abraham to obtain the promise of an "heir" and that is precisely what it takes for anyone to be justified before God because they were "dead....deadness" in regard to obtaining this promise.

1. God waited until Abraham and Sarah's abilities to participate, assist and contribute to obtaining this promise was "dead" and "deadness." - v. 19

2. God waited until Abraham and Sarah only could "hope" in the face of all physical evidence against hope that such a promise could be obtained - v. 18

3. The only thing Abraham possessed was a strong faith - v. 20

4. The nature of this "faith" was the strong persuasion that God could do what they COULD NOT DO or help God do - v. 21

Paul wants the reader to know that this illustration is not just the definition of faith for that particular issue but it is this very same nature of faith that obtained imputation of righteousness by Abraham in verse 3 (v. 22).

It is this very same nature of faith that is recorded for our sakes as well - v. 23

It is this very same nature of faith that obtains the promise of justification in Christ - vv. 24-25

It is this very same nature of faith that obtains the peace of God - 5:1

It is this very same nature of faith that obtains all the promises of God - 5:2


Therefore, justification "by faith" is not justifcation by WHAT WE CAN DO or ASSIST GOD in doing for or in or through us (our faithfulness) but it is utter dependence upon and utter persuasion/trust in God to obtain RIGHTEOUSENSS which we are NOT ABLE to provide for ourselves but is found only in Christ and obtained only by faith in the promise that God will IMPUTE/RECKON/COUNT it to us by simply believing in His promise in the gospel.

I am reposting this because no one to date has been able to provide any kind of exegetical response to prove my exposition is wrong.

SBM's response is absurd because "justified by faith" must be interpeted in response to what it is contextually contasted with - "justified by works". This very contrast proves "by faith" cannot possibly be interpreted to be of works simply because that would demand there is no contrast at all.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Faith is the basis for justification not works.

You teach Justification by works, something that a man does !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



You teach Justification by works, something that a man does !

Your error is exposed by your response! You cannot respond to the evidence I placed before you and so you simply reassert disproven rhetoric!

Here again is the indisputable evidence you are wrong - Romans 3:28 contrasts justification "by faith" with justification by works "deeds" and thus the contrast demands that "faith" cannot possibly be "of works" or else no contrast can be made between them! You are making Paul's contrast utter foolishness because you are denying such a contrast exists when Paul plainly and explicitly states it does exist.

So, since you cannot intelligently respond to these facts. Since you cannot exegetically respond to to the clear and obvious contrast between "faith" and "deeds" in Romans 3:28 you simply act like a senseless parrot who repeats what has been utterly proven to be false and oxymoronic rationale.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your error is exposed by your response! You cannot respond to the evidence I placed before you and so you simply reassert disproven rhetoric!

Here again is the indisputable evidence you are wrong - Romans 3:28 contrasts justification "by faith" with justification by works "deeds" and thus the contrast demands that "faith" cannot possibly be "of works" or else no contrast can be made between them! You are making Paul's contrast utter foolishness because you are denying such a contrast exists when Paul plainly and explicitly states it does exist.

So, since you cannot intelligently respond to these facts. Since you cannot exegetically respond to to the clear and obvious contrast between "faith" and "deeds" in Romans 3:28 you simply act like a senseless parrot who repeats what has been utterly proven to be false and oxymoronic rationale.

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

QUESTIONS:

1. What is being directly contrasted to justification by "deeds" here?

2. If "faith" is placed in direct contrast to "deeds" then how can faith be of deeds without making Pauls words utterlly meaningless in this text?


Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


QUESTION: Again Paul contrasts justification "by the works" to justification "by the faith" so how can "faith" be OF WORKS without destroying this contrast?


The words "by the faith of Jesus Christ" is an objective genitive and means "by the kind of faith which has Jesus Christ for its object." Absolute contextual proof of this is the very next explanatory word "EVEN" followed by the explanation "we have believed IN Jesus Christ, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED...."

SBM would have to reverse this explanation by Paul and read it this way, "we have been justiifed by Christ's faith THAT WE MIGHT BELIEVE IN jesus Christ."

Hence, SBM would require prior justification in order for us to believe in Jesus Christ.

However, Paul says the very reverse! He says "we have believed in Jesus Christ, that WE MIGHT BE justified....."

Another clear evidence that we are justified by faith in Christ is Paul's repeated words "the just shall live BY FAITH." In context, it is always the gospel that is in view in regard to this quotation by Paul in the New Testament. The term "just" means "justified" and thus "the Justified." The term "live" refers to the life promised in the gospel or JUDICIAL LIFE granted through imputation of the legal righteousness of Christ to those who believe in the gospel which is imputed "by faith."

This quotation is NEVER used of progressive sanctification but of life by faith judicially or by justification.