The Natue of Faith in Romans 3:24-5:2

[savedbymercy]

The difference in you and I in the verse Rom 3:28, you take faith there to be causative of Justification, I see it there being receptive of a established Truth that was already a Reality in the Mind of God !

Faith is not the causative reason for one's Justification before God unless we are strictly speaking of Christ's Faith or Faithfulness, but rather it is the sense, or perception, and evidence of ones Justification [ Heb 11:1] for it is Christ's Righteousness as imputed that only Justifies before God, and this is revealed from Faith to Faith to heaven born Faith ! Faith is a spiritual grace or fruit [Gal 5:22] and enabling produced by the Holy Spirit of God that gives the redeemed sinner eyes to see in Christ a imputed Righteousness, now having by Him also convicted of our own sinfulness by nature, we do turn from our own Righteousness, and succumb to the Righteousness we have had revealed to us by the Gospel, provided by Christ Rom 1:16-17, hence the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed Justified and do have peace with God through Jesus Christ, and do become evidentially as well as declaratively Justified by the Spirit of God 1 Cor 6:11. Now Faith reveals to the Elect sinner, their state in Christ, and their free gift of Righteousness through Him Rom 5:17-18

17For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.

18Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

In John 15 abiding in him has nothing to do with justification or regeneration.

But it does have EVERYTHING to do with REMAININING IN CHRIST, IN WHOM is our JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION.

It has to do with fruit production or experiential sanctification as opposed to the process of discipline.

But those who failed to abide in Christ and bear fruit are taken out of the Vine by the Father and cast out as a branch and burned. You are ignoring the clear reading of the passage and reading something else into it which isnt' there.

The consequences for not producing fruit or daily cleansing is disciplinary actions whereby the Lord cuts off the branch and they experience a dried up life that brings them into temporal condemnation by men.

No, the consequences of not abiding in Christ and producing fruit is for that branch to be TAKEN OUT OF THE VINE (CHRIST) and BURNED. That has nothing to do with the 'temporal condemnation by man'. To NOT BE IN CHRIST is to NOT BE SAVED.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Justification is not progressive but a completed action at the point of conversion (rom. 4:11; 5:1-2).

I agree it's not 'progressive' but it is true only for those in Christ. If one is cut off from Christ, that one no longer stands justified, as our justification is in HIM (Romans 8:1, 2 Cor 5:21). Justification is not an irrevocable status we have independent of our union with Christ.

Where there is no regeneration there is no justification and progressive sanctification is the product of regeneration (Eph. 2:10) not the product of justification.

Yet all depends on our union with Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

But it does have EVERYTHING to do with REMAININING IN CHRIST, IN WHOM is our JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION.

What you and many do not understand is that "in Christ" has a variety of applications in the New Testament and each must be interpreted by its immediate context to understand the appropriate application.

For example there are several different ways to be "in Christ:

1. We are CHOSEN "in him" before the foundation of the world - Eph. 1:4

This is "in Christ" by PURPOSE before we were born. The elect have been Abiding "in him" in this sense for thousands of years before they were born into this world and thus had no decision on their part for thousands of years to determine abiding or not abiding in him.

2. We are CREATED "in Christ Jesus" by new birth - Eph. 2:10

This is solely "his workmanship" that is beyond the power of the human will to effect (Jn. 1:13). In John 15:3 they had already been cleansed by the Word or regenerated or metaphorically their bodies had already been cleansed (Jn. 13) but only their "feet" and "hands" needed daily cleansing (Jn. 15:4-14).

3. We are SEATED "in Christ Jesus" in heavenly places right now - Eph. 2:6

This is by LEGAL POSITION or justification by faith

4. We are BAPTIZED "into Christ" - Gal. 3:27

This refers to a one time act whereby we are FIGURATIVELY and PUBLICLY "put on" Christ by baptism in the likeness of his death, burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:4-5).

5. We are METAPHORICALLY placed "in Christ" in regard to church membership as the local visible body of Christ is the metaphorical body of Christ in a local community such as Corinth - 1 Cor. 12:27 (note "ye" not "we").

6. We are EXPERIENTIALLY "in Christ" by our WALK - Col. 2:6

To "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25) is to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) and it is to put on the new man so that Christ is made manifest in our DAILY life and is the same as crucifying the flesh DAILY. At all times we are either walking after the flesh or after the Spirit. Abiding in him in this sense is an off and on EXPERIENCE. It is in this manner we expereince the blessing of salvation here and now as we walk "in him" - Col. 2:6. This has to do with our TEMPORAL state here and now (1 Cor. 3:14-15) and temporal judgements here and now as well as rewards later. This is what John 15 refers to. John 15 does not refer to being "chosen in him" nor "created in Christ" nor "baptized into Christ" nor "in Christ" by justification/legally/positionally but rather our daily experiential walk "in him."

But those who failed to abide in Christ and bear fruit are taken out of the Vine by the Father and cast out as a branch and burned. You are ignoring the clear reading of the passage and reading something else into it which isnt' there.

There are judgements by God that have nothing to do with determining entrance into heaven (1 Cor. 3:14-15). There are TEMPORAL judgements by God here and now under the chastening hand of God. Lot was judged in this manner by God through men. He suffered the "loss" of his testimony before men and the "loss" of many experiential blessings of God so that his heart was vexed but his soul was still saved.

No, the consequences of not abiding in Christ and producing fruit is for that branch to be TAKEN OUT OF THE VINE (CHRIST) and BURNED. That has nothing to do with the 'temporal condemnation by man'. To NOT BE IN CHRIST is to NOT BE SAVED.

No, you are daily walking "in him" and out of him as no one walks "in him" consistently and constantly and thus perfectly without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). However, the natural maintenance of that walk is to immediately repent and have fellowship restored. However, that is not the case always. For example David must have gone nearly nine months in unrepentance and during that time he was immersed in misery (Psa. 32:2-4). There is a sin unto physical death whereby God takes the child home as a temporal judgement when they continue in willful sin and do not respond to chastening.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree it's not 'progressive' but it is true only for those in Christ. If one is cut off from Christ, that one no longer stands justified, as our justification is in HIM (Romans 8:1, 2 Cor 5:21). Justification is not an irrevocable status we have independent of our union with Christ.



Yet all depends on our union with Christ.

the Holy Spirit has permanently sealed us in jesus, so how do we break that union again?

 

[The Biblicist]

Faith is not the causative reason

Paul is talking about the INSTRUMENTAL means ("by") not causative reason. The causative reason is the Person and work of Christ.


Secondly, you cannot dispute that "faith" is being contrasted to "works" in the VERY SAME MANNER as works is being argued to justify us before God.

 

[savedbymercy]

Paul is talking about the INSTRUMENTAL means ("by") not causative reason. The causative reason is the Person and work of Christ.


Secondly, you cannot dispute that "faith" is being contrasted to "works" in the VERY SAME MANNER as works is being argued to justify us before God.

Faith is not the causative reason ! Faith receives [as it is revealed to faith] the causative reason for one being Justified before God, that is the Blood of Christ and His Imputed Righteousness. All for whom Christ died and rose again are Justified before God's Law and Justice Rom 4:25. Now they do not know about it until they are born again and given the Fruit of Hope and Faith !

Thats why Faith is contrasted with works, because Faith Reveals a Free Justification accomplished, and already imputed to ones Charge versus what one has to do to get Justified. You teach a perversion of faith which makes Faith the act that man performs to become Justified before God. Thats the perverted view of Faith and its teaching salvation by works, by what a man does !

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is not the causative reason ! Faith receives [as it is revealed to faith] the causative reason for one being Justified before God, that is the Blood of Christ and His Imputed Righteousness. All for whom Christ died and rose again are Justified before God's Law and Justice Rom 4:25. Now they do not know about it until they are born again and given the Fruit of Hope and Faith !

Thats why Faith is contrasted with works, because Faith Reveals a Free Justification accomplished, and already imputed to ones Charge versus what one has to do to get Justified. You teach a perversion of faith which makes Faith the act that man performs to become Justified before God. Thats the perverted view of Faith and its teaching salvation by works, by what a man does !

the basis of one being justified to God is due to the Cross, but HOW we get that effectual grace applied toward sus is by faith in Yeshua!

 

[savedbymercy]

the basis of one being justified to God is due to the Cross, but HOW we get that effectual grace applied toward sus is by faith in Yeshua!

The ones Christ died for, the Christ I serve, we get Grace applied to us by God's Spirit in the New Birth and that brings forth the fruit of Faith.

Your gospel is one of works !

 

[Doubting Thomas]

the Holy Spirit has permanently sealed us in jesus, so how do we break that union again?

Where does it say PERMANENTLY? The believer's relationship with the Spirit is not static, but dynamic. The believer is commanded to walk in the Spirit so he doesn't carry out the desires of the Flesh. The believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit, but is warned against grieving, quenching, or insulting the Spirit of grace. Paul told the Roman believers that the must by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh in order to live, but if they lived according to the flesh they would DIE and that those who were led by the Spirit were the sons of God (Rom 8:12-14). Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they sowed to the flesh they would reap corruption, but if they sowed to the Spirit they'd reap everlasting life.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

What you and many do not understand is that "in Christ" has a variety of applications in the New Testament and each must be interpreted by its immediate context to understand the appropriate application.

But none can be ultimately separated from actually being in union with Christ.

To "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25) is to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) and it is to put on the new man so that Christ is made manifest in our DAILY life and is the same as crucifying the flesh DAILY. At all times we are either walking after the flesh or after the Spirit.

Yet Paul specifically warns believes that if they sow to the flesh they will reap corruption (rather than everlasting life--GAL 6:7-9) and if they live according to the flesh they will DIE (ROM 8:13). One must sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life and one must by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh in order to live.

Abiding in him in this sense is an off and on EXPERIENCE. It is in this manner we expereince the blessing of salvation here and now as we walk "in him" - Col. 2:6. This has to do with our TEMPORAL state here and now (1 Cor. 3:14-15) and temporal judgements here and now as well as rewards later. This is what John 15 refers to.

That is bunk. Jesus teaches that the branches that fail to abide in Him and bear fruit will be TAKEN OUT OF HIM BY THE FATHER and BURNED. It says nothing about 'temporal' judgments. To not have the Son is to NOT HAVE LIFE (1 John 5:11-12). Those who start sowing to and living according to the flesh and who don't repent are those who ultimately fail to abide in Christ and who will be cast forth as dead branches from the Vine.

 

[Yeshua1]

But none can be ultimately separated from actually being in union with Christ.


Yet Paul specifically warns believes that if they sow to the flesh they will reap corruption (rather than everlasting life--GAL 6:7-9) and if they live according to the flesh they will DIE (ROM 8:13). One must sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life and one must by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh in order to live.



That is bunk. Jesus teaches that the branches that fail to abide in Him and bear fruit will be TAKEN OUT OF HIM BY THE FATHER and BURNED. It says nothing about 'temporal' judgments. To not have the Son is to NOT HAVE LIFE (1 John 5:11-12). Those who start sowing to and living according to the flesh and who don't repent are those who ultimately fail to abide in Christ and who will be cast forth as dead branches from the Vine.

the bible states that we HAVE been sealed by the Holy Spirit into Christ, that he is the pledge that we WILL receive the fullness of our inheritence in the saints...

Again,can you undo his sealing work?

 

[The Biblicist]

Yet Paul specifically warns believes that if they sow to the flesh they will reap corruption (rather than everlasting life--GAL 6:7-9) and if they live according to the flesh they will DIE (ROM 8:13). One must sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life and one must by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh in order to live.

You are not sinless and whatever aspect of your life that is not a product of walking in the Spirit is a product of death (separation from the Spirit). Both death and life are manifested in the Christian daily life. Time must be redeemed (Eph. 5:17) by walking(filled) in the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) and whatever time is not redeemed is lost, destroyed for God's glory and thus "burned" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Jesus teaches that the branches that fail to abide in Him and bear fruit will be TAKEN OUT OF HIM BY THE FATHER and BURNED.

No, it explicitly states that "MEN" gather and burn them not the Father. The life that does not produce fruit is a life trampled under the feet of "men" (Mt. 5:14) and burned by "men" - loss of testimony.

 

[savedbymercy]

The ones Christ died for, the Christ I serve, we get Grace applied to us by God's Spirit in the New Birth and that brings forth the fruit of Faith.

Your gospel is one of works !

Those who are entangled in false religion boast about themselves applying salvation to themselves, but the True Believer gives the Praise to God the Holy Spirit as being the Applier of the Salvation Christ wrought for His People !

 

[The Biblicist]

All for whom Christ died and rose again are Justified before God's Law and Justice Rom 4:25. Now they do not know about it until they are born again and given the Fruit of Hope and Faith !

Thats why Faith is contrasted with works, because Faith Reveals a Free Justification accomplished, and already imputed to ones Charge versus what one has to do to get Justified. You teach a perversion of faith which makes Faith the act that man performs to become Justified before God. Thats the perverted view of Faith and its teaching salvation by works, by what a man does !

Again, you dissect the work of the Son from the work of the Spirit and attempt to make his work stand alone in and of itself when in fact it does not.

In the Old Testament types the blood shed at the brazen altar availed nothing in and of itself until it was taken and sprinkled upon all other aspects of the holy and holy place and only then was Israel justified. Christ as our Great High Priest offered himself up by one offering and that sacrifice was finished - no more sacrifices required. However, the High Priest must APPLY the blood or it is meaningless. Justification by faith is the application of the blood to his elect and faith is not a work of man but the gift of God resident in the New heart when it is given.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Again, you dissect the work of the Son from the work of the Spirit and attempt to make his work stand alone in and of itself when in fact it does not.

You need to reread post 54 !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



You need to reread post 54 !

Faith is a gift and who can boast in a gift? You?

Faith is "by grace" who can boast in "grace"? You?

Faith is the work of God who authors it and finishes it? Who can boast in another's work? You?

Faith is not "of works" - Romans 3:28!

You simply do not know what you are talking about!

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Faith is a gift and who can boast in a gift? You?

What did you learn about me from post 54 ?

 

[savedbymercy]

yesh

the basis of one being justified to God is due to the Cross, but HOW we get that effectual grace applied toward sus is by faith in Yeshua!

The Truth is this:

Regeneration or New Birth is the Spiritual Application and implantation of that Spiritual Life as a result of being quickened together with Christ, when He was Raised [As our Surety and Head] from the Dead Eph 2:6

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The word raised synegeirō and means:

to raise together, to cause to raise together

2) to raise up together from mortal death to a new and blessed life dedicated to God

So the New Birth in Time is the evidence of all whom were in Christ when He rose as their Surety from the Dead. Hence we are Born Again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Before this, we are spiritually dead Eph 2:5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

And this is what it means to be Saved by Grace, to be given a New Birth because of the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead as Our Federal Head and Shepard, who gave His Life for the Sheep !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



What did you learn about me from post 54 ?

I learned that you do not know what you are talking about.

I learned that you need to study the scripture better.

I learned that you have embraced false doctrine.

I learned that you do not understand justification by faith

I learned that you do not know the difference between instrumental and causation.

I learned that you do not understand that conversion (repentance and faith) is inseparable from regeneration in a cause and effect relationship.