Pastor and Teacher, or Pastor/Teacher?

[webdog]

I disagree. Don't you know people who could teach but don't?

Yes. I'm currently one of them That doesn't mean I'm not a teacher, it just means I'm not teaching.

Can a non-teacher teach? To teach means one has knowledge on the subject being conveyed to the learner, and if one is able to do this they are teachers.

All pastors must be the husband of one wife, but it doesn't mean all husbands of one wife are called to be pastors. Same principle with teachers / teaching.
Tom had a good point as well in the Ephesians text.

 

[Jim1999]

The overall word of God calls pastors to lead the local church. Not all pastors can teach, but can preach, and preaching includes opening the truth of God's word to all.

Some people like to play on words until they no longer have any meaning. Seven deacons, the only other officers of the local church, can often make up for the pastors' short-comings.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[John of Japan]

Yes. I'm currently one of them That doesn't mean I'm not a teacher, it just means I'm not teaching.

Can a non-teacher teach? To teach means one has knowledge on the subject being conveyed to the learner, and if one is able to do this they are teachers.

I do think a non-teacher can teach. It happens all the time. We were in a restaurant last night where Bree our server was learning the ropes from a veteran. The veteran server wasn't a teacher but was teaching Bree the job. In Japanese the verb oshieru, to teach, can be used in a wide range of situations, such as "Teach me where the train station is."

All pastors must be the husband of one wife, but it doesn't mean all husbands of one wife are called to be pastors. Same principle with teachers / teaching.

Point taken. And this explanation can explain how there were teachers in the church at Antioch (Acts 13:1). I don't reject out of hand the idea that there are teachers in the church, but pastors must be teachers based on "apt to teach." But my main point is the exegesis of Eph. 4:11, and I'm waiting for that to be refuted.

Tom had a good point as well in the Ephesians text.

I don't think Tom's point holds true grammatically even in English. My illustration to him might not have rung true. Try this one: "In the Olympics, there are the runners, the swimmers, and the wrestlers and judo competitors." This is a direct syntactical parallel to the Eph. passage, yet is not saying that the wrestlers and judo competitors are the same people, even though they are similar in that they are both grappling sports.

 

[Tom Butler]

As I've been saying, I don't believe the Greek of Eph. 4:11 does not bear out this (though I'm open to argument on this). But even in English grammar I don't think you can get this. For example, what if I were to say, "There are some eggs, some bacon, and some coffee and donuts." You couldn't say then that the coffee and donuts are the same.

John, I'm not a Greek scholar, so I will yield to your knowledge on that. But I was an English major and am a student of the English language.

I could just as easily interpret your example as meaning that one intends for coffee and donuts to always be taken together. It doesn't mean coffee and donuts are the same. It means you have one, you also have the other.

Now, I grant that it may be possible that you can have a preacher/pastor who doesn't have the teaching gift--but I've never known one. Every pastor I've ever sat under also taught.

 

[John of Japan]

John, I'm not a Greek scholar, so I will yield to your knowledge on that. But I was an English major and am a student of the English language.

I could just as easily interpret your example as meaning that one intends for coffee and donuts to always be taken together. It doesn't mean coffee and donuts are the same. It means you have one, you also have the other.

Now, I grant that it may be possible that you can have a preacher/pastor who doesn't have the teaching gift--but I've never known one. Every pastor I've ever sat under also taught.

I think we agree that in English, at least, the verse is ambiguous--could be taken either way. (I was only a minor in English. )

So my main point remains that I object to MacArthur's interpretation of a paradigm of pastor/teacher in which the two roles are not really clearly distinguished. I believe that teaching is a part of the pastor's work, but not the definitive part, and that a man does not cease to be a pastor if he is not teaching but spends most of his time in leading motivating and counseling. Also, I believe that teacher is a separate office in the church, a very necessary office. I think verses such as Acts 13:1 prove this.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi, Mexdeaf.

Jesus and Paul were both pastors and teachers, of course. Jesus was also called apostle and prophet in the NT, but no one wants to call Him a shepherd/apostle or a prophet/teacher. So I distinguish between Him being both a pastor and teacher, and the pastor/teacher paradigm, in which I see no room for a Bible teacher who is not a pastor, like for example many of our teachers at Temple: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, etc.

Also, think of the pastors who are great leaders and motivators, but lousy preachers and teachers. The pastor/teacher paradigm would leave them out as un-Biblical.

Hello John of Japan, nice to meet you.

It may be that you answer the question indirectly in your statment here, and I would ask...is there a passage in scripture where we find "shepherd/apostle" as we find "pastors and teachers?"

I am for the most part in agreement with your assessment: we do find men that are great pastors yet lousy teachers. And vice versa. It may be that the role of leadership is implied and perhaps the designations are given this way to reflect the different abilities within this role.

Just thinking out loud...don't hold it against me...lol.

God bless.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Not all teachers have the office of a pastor, but all pastors should be able to teach.

1 Timothy 3:2 (ESV)
2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

 

[John of Japan]

Hello John of Japan, nice to meet you.

It may be that you answer the question indirectly in your statment here, and I would ask...is there a passage in scripture where we find "shepherd/apostle" as we find "pastors and teachers?"

Hi, Darrell. Nice to know you, and thanks for the input. :wavey:

I decided to take a look at the Greek texts of relevant passages and find that in both Eph. 3:5 and 2:20 we have the same plural construction as Eph. 4:11 with apostles and prophets being in view. However, no one seems to think that means apostles and prophets are referring to the same set of persons. Since this mention is in the same book as 4:11, we can say that Paul's style in Eph. doesn't invite the pastor/teacher paradigm.

I am for the most part in agreement with your assessment: we do find men that are great pastors yet lousy teachers. And vice versa. It may be that the role of leadership is implied and perhaps the designations are given this way to reflect the different abilities within this role.

Just thinking out loud...don't hold it against me...lol.

God bless.

Thanks for the agreement. :thumbsup: I think pastors should all do their best to be teachers, but not all are. I don't think they cease to be pastors because they can't teach very well.

 

[John of Japan]

Not all teachers have the office of a pastor, but all pastors should be able to teach.

1 Timothy 3:2 (ESV)
2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

I agree, and this verse has been mentioned several times. It is of course a requiremen that a pastor be apt to teach, but the word teacher does not appear in the passages.

Furthermore, how many of us are able to meet all of the criteria Paul gives in 1 Tim. 3? I know I fail often on some of these. I believe they are a standard to shoot for, but Paul himself was not very self-controlled when he split with Barnabas. We all fail, but hopefully keep on trying.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Can you give Scripture for these points?

I would think it's obvious that some people are given the talent for teaching but not to be a pastor, and Eph. 4:11 clearly shows that pastors are to be teachers--at least, it's clear to me. I've know men who weren't called to either one but insisted on doing one or the other or both. Women are not to teach men or to be pastors, but they can teach other women and children. The Bible only says they are not to teach men. I know that sounds a bit old fashioned and out-dated, but it's still scripture whether we agree with it or not.

 

[John of Japan]

I would think it's obvious that some people are given the talent for teaching but not to be a pastor, and Eph. 4:11 clearly shows that pastors are to be teachers--at least, it's clear to me. I've know men who weren't called to either one but insisted on doing one or the other or both. Women are not to teach men or to be pastors, but they can teach other women and children. The Bible only says they are not to teach men. I know that sounds a bit old fashioned and out-dated, but it's still scripture whether we agree with it or not.

Though I disagree with you on Eph. 4:11, I'm old fashioned with you all the way on the rest of your post.

 

[Allan]

Would your NT Survey teacher have been a pastor/teacher or just a teacher? :smilewinkgrin: I remember a number of our great teachers there who did not pastor: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, Dennis Wisdom. My Uncle Roger Martin pastored for years, but then for many years was "just" a teacher.

I think you missed my point brother. I'm not saying ONLY a pastor can be a teacher.. look at my post again. My statement is that ALL believers are to be teachers, the very term disciple not only implies we are to teach but establishes this fact. The great commissioning of the Church in Mat 28 speaks to all preaching (proclaiming) and teaching others. Teaching can be done in various ways (one-on-one, and a few, small groups, larger groups, ect..), however the pastor should be able to teach. This portion here I believe is not speaking of one-on-one or mentoring but is more focused toward the group that he will be pastoring thus toward the congregation as whole.

If Eph. 4:11 is a case of the GS applied to the plural, it is indeed unique there in the NT. However, there are plenty of cases in the NT where the plural construction is specifically about two groups, in particular many cases where scribes and Pharisees are mentioned: Matt. 5:20, 12:38, 15:1, etc. Or, where Pharisees and Sadducees appear: Matt. 3:7, 16:1, etc.

Yes, but does that negate the possibility of it being the latter?

Daniel Wallace points out that the Greek commentators who argue for pastor/teacher in Eph. 4:11 don't give linguistic proof. However, there are usages outside the NT where a case for the plural might be made. My Greek prof friend says he'd love to mentor a PhD student who wants to do a dissertation updating the GS.

Again, if it was something that can be demonstrated outside the scriptural text we can presume it is 'plausibly' possible. So if it is, we need proof - but if linguistics are not found in than a single portion, would we not look to the whole of scripture to posit if the possible unique usage might in fact be just what it is - used for this purpose in a unique way.

Actually, there are a number of passages where teachers are portrayed as an office: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28-29 (where it is lined up with apostles and prophets), Heb. 5:12, etc

I don't necessarily see it as an office of the church in the passages referenced above, again because we are all to be teachers to varying degrees thus a type of position but not office. As I understand it, an office holds some type of authority that was acknowledge by church, is this not correct?

The passage in 1 Cor. 12 is speaking of gifts, not offices otherwise miracle working and tongues would be an office as well.

The Heb 5 passage speaks to my point.. EVERYONE should be or better is expected to eventually a teacher to some degree.

I think also that the teacher is in mind in 1 Tim. 5:17: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine (didaskalia, "teaching")."

See with that I don't, I see the elder/pastor is in view who should be teaching as much as he is studying. I can't find where pastors aren't automatically assumed to be teaching as well as preaching.

Can you give me any instance (other than Eph. 4:11) where the pastor/teacher paradigm is clear?

Does yours above count

 

[John of Japan]

I think you missed my point brother. I'm not saying ONLY a pastor can be a teacher.. look at my post again. My statement is that ALL believers are to be teachers, the very term disciple not only implies we are to teach but establishes this fact. The great commissioning of the Church in Mat 28 speaks to all preaching (proclaiming) and teaching others. Teaching can be done in various ways (one-on-one, and a few, small groups, larger groups, ect..), however the pastor should be able to teach. This portion here I believe is not speaking of one-on-one or mentoring but is more focused toward the group that he will be pastoring thus toward the congregation as whole.

Didn't mean to miss your point. Sorry about that. And I agree that the pastor should be able to teach, but not that a pastor is of necessity ergo a teacher.

But I fail to see how all believers are to be teachers in the same sense as the teachers in Acts 13:1, which in my view puts teachers right up there with prophets in the church at Antioch. "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers." No one on this thread has yet dealt with this verse, yet it seems to go right with my view of Eph. 4:11 that pastors and teachers are separate.

Yes, but does that negate the possibility of it being the latter?

In my mind it makes the Greek GS rule as applied to plurals iffy. At best, the plural construction is an exception to the GS rule. But work remains to be done in this area by the grammarians.

Again, if it was something that can be demonstrated outside the scriptural text we can presume it is 'plausibly' possible. So if it is, we need proof - but if linguistics are not found in than a single portion, would we not look to the whole of scripture to posit if the possible unique usage might in fact be just what it is - used for this purpose in a unique way.

I don't deny the possibility that the plurals in Eph. 4:11 is an exception to the GS rule, I just haven't seen it proven yet. But MacArthur and others treat it as a proven fact.

I don't necessarily see it as an office of the church in the passages referenced above, again because we are all to be teachers to varying degrees thus a type of position but not office. As I understand it, an office holds some type of authority that was acknowledge by church, is this not correct?

Again, I think Acts 13:1 needs to be dealt with in this issue.

The passage in 1 Cor. 12 is speaking of gifts, not offices otherwise miracle working and tongues would be an office as well.

But in Eph. 4:11 it says "He gave" the offices. Why could not 1 Cor. be listing various types of gifts?

The Heb 5 passage speaks to my point.. EVERYONE should be or better is expected to eventually a teacher to some degree.

Point taken.

See with that I don't, I see the elder/pastor is in view who should be teaching as much as he is studying. I can't find where pastors aren't automatically assumed to be teaching as well as preaching.

Point taken.

Does yours above count

Point taken. :applause:

 

[Jerome]

Paul uses both office and gift in Romans:

12:4-8
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

 

[Bob Alkire]

No one on this thread has yet dealt with this verse, yet it seems to go right with my view of Eph. 4:11 that pastors and teachers are separate.

Brother, me disagreeing with you on Greek isn't smart on my part, I haven't retained much of what I had in school. But I was taught that pastor and teacher in Eph. 4:11, was pastor-teacher. I will take from Tom Constable's teaching here, because it is right a long the line I was taught.

"We might better translate the Greek phrase rendered "pastors and teachers" as "pastor-teachers." The Greek construction suggests that one kind rather than two kinds of people is in view. The Greek article translated "the" occurs only before "pastor." Moreover the Greek conjunction translated "and" between "pastors" and "teachers" is different from the one used elsewhere in the verse (kai rather than de). However, the Greek construction may describe two types of gifted people whose ministries are among settled congregations in contrast to the itinerant ministries of the apostles, prophets, and evangelists. Probably the phrase describes the overseers of local churches who pastor and teach (cf. 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:9; 1 Pet. 5:1–3)."

 

[Jerome]

Anyone know which translation actually employs this term, "pastor-teacher"?

 

[Jerome]

For those who've bought into this "pastor-teacher" business, is every pastor a "Pastor-Teacher", or is the title reserved for a certain class of pastor?

Because I see on John MacArthur's website he alone bears that hyphenate title. The youth ministers, etc., are just styled "pastor".

 

[Bob Alkire]

For those who've bought into this "pastor-teacher" business, is every pastor a "Pastor-Teacher", or is the title reserved for a certain class of pastor?

Off the top of my heard I would say all are, but I never had another pastor in any church that I've been placed in.
I know any church that I've been a member in I have had good pastor-teachers.
I believe I'm correct, but it isn't an issue that I would be dogmatic about.
And by the way I don't know of a Bible that employs the term.

 

[Jerome]

Ephesians 4:11

KJB "pastors and teachers"
NKJV "pastors and teachers"
NASB "pastors and teachers"
HCSB "pastors and teachers"
NLT "pastors and teachers"
NRSV "pastors and teachers"
NIV "pastors and teachers"

ESV "shepherds and teachers"

MESS "pastor-teacher"

 

[John of Japan]

Brother, me disagreeing with you on Greek isn't smart on my part, I haven't retained much of what I had in school. But I was taught that pastor and teacher in Eph. 4:11, was pastor-teacher. I will take from Tom Constable's teaching here, because it is right a long the line I was taught.

"We might better translate the Greek phrase rendered "pastors and teachers" as "pastor-teachers." The Greek construction suggests that one kind rather than two kinds of people is in view. The Greek article translated "the" occurs only before "pastor." Moreover the Greek conjunction translated "and" between "pastors" and "teachers" is different from the one used elsewhere in the verse (kai rather than de). However, the Greek construction may describe two types of gifted people whose ministries are among settled congregations in contrast to the itinerant ministries of the apostles, prophets, and evangelists. Probably the phrase describes the overseers of local churches who pastor and teach (cf. 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:9; 1 Pet. 5:1–3)."

I don't know his level of Greek, though it appears to be good judging by this one paragraph. However, Tom appears to disagree with his DTS colleague Daniel Wallace on this exegesis in his first possible interpretation.

When Tom references the word "the" appearing before the two words, he is referring to the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar that I've been discussing, and it is here that he disagrees with Wallace.

He notices that the first three offices have the conjunction de with them. However, what he doesn't mention here (though maybe he does elsewhere) is that the de (de) is part of a men...de (men...de) construction, usually interpreted to mean "on the one hand...on the other hand." This to me bolsters his second possible interpretation, in which the passage might be referring to itinerant versus stationary ministries. So with that construction in mind, we might literally translate, "On the one hand God has given some as apostles, some as evangelists and some as prophets, and on the other hand God gave some as the pastors and teachers."