Pastor and Teacher, or Pastor/Teacher?

[John of Japan]

Ephesians 4:11

KJB "pastors and teachers"
NKJV "pastors and teachers"
NASB "pastors and teachers"
HCSB "pastors and teachers"
NLT "pastors and teachers"
NRSV "pastors and teachers"
NIV "pastors and teachers"

ESV "shepherds and teachers"

MESS "pastor-teacher"

Never heardd of the MESS translation--but maybe it is (a mess). :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Bob Alkire]

I don't know his level of Greek, though it appears to be good judging by this one paragraph. However, Tom appears to disagree with his DTS colleague Daniel Wallace on this exegesis in his first possible interpretation.

When Tom references the word "the" appearing before the two words, he is referring to the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar that I've been discussing, and it is here that he disagrees with Wallace.

He notices that the first three offices have the conjunction de with them. However, what he doesn't mention here (though maybe he does elsewhere) is that the de (de) is part of a men...de (men...de) construction, usually interpreted to mean "on the one hand...on the other hand." This to me bolsters his second possible interpretation, in which the passage might be referring to itinerant versus stationary ministries. So with that construction in mind, we might literally translate, "On the one hand God has given some as apostles, some as evangelists and some as prophets, and on the other hand God gave some as the pastors and teachers."

Thanks John. As I said pastor teacher is what I was taught years ago, and still buy into, but as I said I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. Here is a little from the NET Bible:

13 sn Some interpreters have understood the phrase pastors and teachers to refer to one and the same group. This would mean that all pastors are teachers and that all teachers are pastors. This position is often taken because it is recognized that both nouns (i.e., pastors and teachers) are governed by one article in Greek. But because the nouns are plural, it is extremely unlikely that they refer to the same group, but only that the author is linking them closely together. It is better to regard the pastors as a subset of teachers. In other words, all pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. See ExSyn 284.​

What I've seen in my life is all pastors are teachers. I know I used to teach Bible on Tuesday nights and doctrine on Thursday night and preach Sunday and Wednesday night.​

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks John. As I said pastor teacher is what I was taught years ago, and still buy into, but as I said I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. Here is a little from the NET Bible:

13 sn Some interpreters have understood the phrase pastors and teachers to refer to one and the same group. This would mean that all pastors are teachers and that all teachers are pastors. This position is often taken because it is recognized that both nouns (i.e., pastors and teachers) are governed by one article in Greek. But because the nouns are plural, it is extremely unlikely that they refer to the same group, but only that the author is linking them closely together. It is better to regard the pastors as a subset of teachers. In other words, all pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. See ExSyn 284.

The NET note is correct, except that I have no idea how they got the subset idea from the Greek grammar.​

What I've seen in my life is all pastors are teachers. I know I used to teach Bible on Tuesday nights and doctrine on Thursday night and preach Sunday and Wednesday night.​

There have been numerous cases of pastors who did not teach, or at least not much. Some churches nowadays have a "preaching pastor" and an "administrative pastor." I believe Beauchamp Vick of Temple Baptist in Detroit years ago was much more of an administrator than a teacher, though he preached. Remember that "bishop" in 1 Tim. 3:1 can be translated "overseer," or maybe "superintendant." So when Paul described a pastor's qualifications, the first thing he thought of is the pastor as a leader and administrator, though he did list "apt to teach."​

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks everyone for participating in the poll and disussion. It went well and I was provoked to thought. I was somehwhat surprised to see that I was part of a small minority on the poll; or in other words that so many hold to the pastor/teacher paradigm instead of separate offices. That was a learning experience.

We leave today for Seattle and then Thursday for Japan, so I may not be able to post again until next week. But if you still have comments, go ahead and post, and I'll get to them when I can.

God bless. :type:

 

[12strings]

There have been numerous cases of pastors who did not teach, or at least not much. Some churches nowadays have a "preaching pastor" and an "administrative pastor." I believe Beauchamp Vick of Temple Baptist in Detroit years ago was much more of an administrator than a teacher, though he preached. Remember that "bishop" in 1 Tim. 3:1 can be translated "overseer," or maybe "superintendant." So when Paul described a pastor's qualifications, the first thing he thought of is the pastor as a leader and administrator, though he did list "apt to teach."​

I think this example is why I would say they are two differing, yet often very connected things. But if a church Hires an Administrative "Pastor" who does not practice, or have the ability to teach, then he is not really meeting the qualifications of "elder" (which I take to be interchanged with "Pastor"). So in such a case it might be more accurate to call that man an administrator, not a pastor, unless he does actually do some "teaching" whether that be groups, or one-to-one counseling.

And there are certainly teachers in church who are not overseers/elders/pastors.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm putting this in this forum since it is a matter of ecclesiology.

On the NA28 thread in the Bible Versions forum the subject of Eph. 4:11 came up when I opined that John MacArthur was mistaken in his interpretation of it. MacArthur teaches that in that verse, the terms "pastors" and "teachers" are talking about the same individuals, based on the Granville Sharp rule of koine Greek grammar. So instead of both pastors and teachers in the church, we have pastor/teachers, one office.

I object to this interpretation on several grounds.

(1) MacArthur is misusing the Granville Sharp rule, which states that when there is the formation in the Greek, definite article + noun + kai (kai, "and") + noun, the two nouns are referring to the same person. But old Granville (the grammarian's name) only applied the rule to singular nouns, not plural, as MacArthur would have it. There are scholars who disagree with me, including a Greek scholar friend, but no less than Daniel Wallace did his dissertation on this, coming out on Granville's side. See a condensation of it at: http://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule. See a simpler explanation at: http://www.biblicalevangelist.org/index.php?id=1039&issue=Volume+41% 2C+Number+4.

(2) I see nowhere else in the NT where we might interpret that pastor and teacher are one and the same.

(3) It seems very plain from other passages that there are teachers who are not pastors: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28, Heb. 5:12.

Personally, I highly value many of my teachers (who were not pastors) in Bible college and seminary over the years, not to mention the many wonderful SS teachers I've had or known. I think it is "dissing" them to not include them as important to Christ's church.

Caveat: I think one person can be a pastor, a teacher, or both. But they are not the same office.

Think that BOTH offices are open and functioning within the Body today, but the point is that while all pastors would be gifted by the lord to be able to also teach, NOT all teachers are gifted to be the pastor!

 

[SovereignMercy]

"I'm putting this in this forum since it is a matter of ecclesiology.

There are scholars who disagree with me, including a Greek scholar friend, but no less than Daniel Wallace did his dissertation on this, coming out on Granville's side.

(2) I see nowhere else in the NT where we might interpret that pastor and teacher are one and the same.

(3) It seems very plain from other passages that there are teachers who are not pastors: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28, Heb. 5:12.

Personally, I highly value many of my teachers (who were not pastors) in Bible college and seminary over the years, not to mention the many wonderful SS teachers I've had or known. I think it is "dissing" them to not include them as important to Christ's church."

Since you brought this up under the doctrine of the church. First of all there are no such institutions as bible colleges or seminaries in the Bible in the church of Christ. They are the constructs of men to attempt to gain power, money and control. I hate to disappoint you but the same can be said for SS teachers and your Daniel Wallace whoever he may be. True teachers are shepherds and therefore pastors over the church of God. They are gifts God distributes according to His own will. Neither Jesus, Paul or any other inspired author ever mentioned "prominent" Greek or Hebrew scholars to prove their points either. MacArthur is so confused about the Gospel, why any believer would look to him or his right hand man, Phil Johnson for anything is beyond me.

 

[John of Japan]

Since you brought this up under the doctrine of the church. First of all there are no such institutions as bible colleges or seminaries in the Bible in the church of Christ. They are the constructs of men to attempt to gain power, money and control.

I totally disagree. There is the school of the prophets that Elisha taught, there is the OT "college" in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 35:22), there is Paul teaching daily in the philosophical school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:9), etc., etc. Your study of the Bible is incomplete and prejudiced by your presuppositions.

The charge that a Bible college is an attempt to "gain power, money and control" is absurd on the face of it, and a vicious charge. I've taught in two Bible schools in Japan, and none of us, NONE OF US, had any of these as motives.

Furthermore, over and over in the NT teachers are praised. Simply because they teach in a Sunday School or a Bible college doesn't diminish their contributions. They are still Bible teachers.

I hate to disappoint you but the same can be said for SS teachers and your Daniel Wallace whoever he may be. True teachers are shepherds and therefore pastors over the church of God. They are gifts God distributes according to His own will. Neither Jesus, Paul or any other inspired author ever mentioned "prominent" Greek or Hebrew scholars to prove their points either. MacArthur is so confused about the Gospel, why any believer would look to him or his right hand man, Phil Johnson for anything is beyond me.

This is very strange. First you agree with MacArthur about the pastor/teacher construct, then you say no one should look to him. Make up your confused mind! :smilewinkgrin:

As for Paul and the other inspired authors never mentioning prominent Greek or Hebrew scholars, that's because they WERE prominent Greek and Hebrew scholars! That's pretty obvious, I think, otherwise how were they able to write fluently in Greek, being Jews (except for Luke)?